MRAs are freaking weird. also virtual reality

[Anakin McFly]

VR is awesome and I've been googling stuff about the Oculus; I found this article about how current VR tech is often designed with men in mind, and women tend to experience more motion sickness due to physiological differences in how the sexes perceive distances: http://qz.com/192874/is-the-oculus-rift ... be-sexist/ (It's not conclusive though, and one counter hypothesis is that most of the female test subjects tend to be the non-gamer friends/family of male gamers, rather than female gamers themselves; gamers often adjust better to VR.)

And then I found MRAs gloating about this, saying that feminazis are attacking VR because they know they'll no longer have power over men once men start replacing them with virtual sex. Apparently that's also why feminists are against prostitution - because then they can no longer get men to do anything they want, rather than because prostitution is known for extremely high rates of abuse and sex trafficking and death or something trivial like that.

It blows my mind that someone can go from an article on motion sickness to ranting about how feminazis are freaking out over VR because they'll no longer be able to control men. I'm a geeky, sexually frustrated virgin and I *still* don't get their logic. I have tons of female friends and to my knowledge none of them try to control men with sex. (Granted, a lot of them are lesbians.)

Here is that MRA thread if you feel like a masochist today: https://forums.oculus.com/viewtopic.php?t=7577

I'm happy for the few voices of reason on there going wtf is the OP smoking.

EDIT: Apparently the two MRAs in question aren't actually MRAs. The MRAs officially denounced one of them as a crazy woman-hater who creeped them out with his misogyny.

[aels]

And then I found MRAs gloating about this, saying that feminazis are attacking VR because they know they'll no longer have power over men once men start replacing them with virtual sex.

Oh my God, I cannot wait for misogynists to be able to direct all their shittiness at VR women and not actual real women.

The MRAs officially denounced one of them as a crazy woman-hater who creeped them out with his misogyny.

I don't understand the distinction.

[Derived Absurdity]

Having worked in the tech sector my whole life, I honestly thought women were a myth until I was at least 25. Even after that actually seeing one was something akin to a Yeti sighting..........

[Anakin McFly]

Oh my God, I cannot wait for misogynists to be able to direct all their shittiness at VR women and not actual real women.

Hahahaha yes.

I don't understand the distinction.

Apparently MRAs don't actually hate women, they just want equal rights!

idk I would be harsher on them if not for the fact that a friend I respect for her intelligence and strong feminist views said that she thinks MRAs make some valid points that are basically the same stuff feminists are fighting for, just from the other side - e.g. all the toxic masculinity that is the result of the patriarchal culture, where men are expected to suck up their feelings and have no emotions, are less likely to seek help when depressed or suicidal because society mocks men who appear vulnerable, how male rape victims are laughed at and dismissed and told they must have enjoyed it, how men aren't allowed to freely and safely express femininity in the way that women can with masculinity, how men are shamed for taking "women's" jobs like nursing or teaching or fashion design even if that's their passion in life, etc.

All of which she agrees are because of patriarchy and misogyny and the devaluing of femininity with a good dose of homophobia. But she thinks there's also value in getting men to approach these issues - how the patriarchy harms men - directly with other men, rather than expect that work from feminism, whose priority should be on how the patriarchy harms women. Which would be pretty great, actually. The one time I came closest to sympathising with MRAs was on a Reddit thread about male rape and sexual abuse, where a few survivors were speaking up about their experiences and how people just laughed or worse when they got up the courage to tell them about it, and many never ended up getting the help they needed because the only such help available was for women only.

If MRAs focused on stuff like that instead of how women are bitches for not sleeping with them, the world would be a better place.

[aels]

My main problem with MRAs is that 99% of the ones I have interacted with have been misogynist fuckheads who try and cloak the fact that they just plain hate women by insisting that they are being logical and reasonable and fair (while making ridiculous bullshit moonlogic arguments, usually). And the other 1% just confuse me. Like, you want equal rights and the destruction of harmful gender roles? Then recognise that the patriarchy is harming all of us and get your arse aboard the intersectionality train.

But she thinks there's also value in getting men to approach these issues - how the patriarchy harms men - directly with other men, rather than expect that work from feminism, whose priority should be on how the patriarchy harms women. Which would be pretty great, actually. The one time I came closest to sympathising with MRAs was on a Reddit thread about male rape and sexual abuse, where a few survivors were speaking up about their experiences and how people just laughed or worse when they got up the courage to tell them about it, and many never ended up getting the help they needed because the only such help available was for women only.

I'm actually not averse to men discussing the harmful effects of patriarchy in male environments - it's far too common to have men take over female spaces when I would prefer that they work on making male spaces less toxic. I just don't understand why men who do want to discuss the harmful effects of patriarchy want to march under the MRA banner.

[Gendo]

Why would you speak ill of MRAs? Are you saying that you DON'T think that men should have rights? Huh?

[aels]

I don't hate men, I just think they need to stop worrying their pretty little heads about these sorts of issues and just get back in the shed and fix my lawnmower.

[Cassius Clay]

I hate men.

[Blade Azaezel]

Men probably shouldn't have rights. I mean, civilisation hasn't gone particularly well so far.

[Dr_Liszt]

You don't control men with sex. You manipulate them with it. DUH!

[Cassius Clay]

Men probably shouldn't have rights. I mean, civilisation hasn't gone particularly well so far.

^Conscious man

[Ptolemy_Banana]

Men probably shouldn't have rights. I mean, civilisation hasn't gone particularly well so far.

I honestly can't tell if that's a joke or not.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

Deanna Troi flew the Enterprise twice and crashed it both times. Checkmate feminazis.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

Deanna Troi flew the Enterprise twice and crashed it both times. Checkmate feminazis.

How do we know that was because she was a woman and not because she was an impure half-breed?

[Ptolemy_Banana]

How dare you, sir? I've had many excellent impure half-breed drivers.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

Though now that I think about it, I have a friend whose father is English and he's crashed loads of cars. But to be fair to him, it's only because he drives really fast.

[Anakin McFly]

My main problem with MRAs is that 99% of the ones I have interacted with have been misogynist fuckheads who try and cloak the fact that they just plain hate women by insisting that they are being logical and reasonable and fair (while making ridiculous bullshit moonlogic arguments, usually). And the other 1% just confuse me.

Yeah, no argument there.

[Dr_Liszt]

As sad as it is. People won't care about the issue unless you make men the focus of the problem. Which is why Emma Watson's speech was highly regarded, it was set around the "let's make feminism a man friendly space, because poor creatures them too! " premise and it's like "NO! MEN ARE NOT THE FOCUS, YOU IDIOTS!"

But that's how you get attention and make your argument valid, which is pretty anti-feminist.

[Anakin McFly]

In those instances I'm usually just happy that more men can be made to care about women's issues, and where once they get that initial interest they will then hopefully learn more and eventually become better feminists who realise that feminism is not about men, and then one day we'd no longer need to focus on men or other privileged groups in order to get/keep allies.

I can't remember if I heard the actual speech, so I can't talk about that, but the He for She idea seemed ok to me in the sense of being a rallying call for allyship and how men too needed to join the fight for women's rights. But if it was "men suffer just as badly under the patriarchy! Feminism is about men's rights too!" then that's taking things in an entirely wrong direction.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

As sad as it is. People won't care about the issue unless you make men the focus of the problem. Which is why Emma Watson's speech was highly regarded, it was set around the "let's make feminism a man friendly space, because poor creatures them too! " premise and it's like "NO! MEN ARE NOT THE FOCUS, YOU IDIOTS!"

But that's how you get attention and make your argument valid, which is pretty anti-feminist.

Is it really anti-feminist though? Part of the reason MRAs exist is because of that exclusion. They're on the outside looking in, and as a result I think contributes in part to the 99%/1% ratio (based on aels' estimates) we're seeing of misogynists to people who don't quite understand how the culture or system we have is harmful to them as well. I'm certainly not saying feminists should switch focus on helping men, but an open discussion on these issues could go a long way to switching those numbers around.

Oh my God, I cannot wait for misogynists to be able to direct all their shittiness at VR women and not actual real women.

Hahahaha yes.

idk I would be harsher on them if not for the fact that a friend I respect for her intelligence and strong feminist views said that she thinks MRAs make some valid points that are basically the same stuff feminists are fighting for, just from the other side - e.g. all the toxic masculinity that is the result of the patriarchal culture, where men are expected to suck up their feelings and have no emotions, are less likely to seek help when depressed or suicidal because society mocks men who appear vulnerable, how male rape victims are laughed at and dismissed and told they must have enjoyed it, how men aren't allowed to freely and safely express femininity in the way that women can with masculinity, how men are shamed for taking "women's" jobs like nursing or teaching or fashion design even if that's their passion in life, etc.

The unfortunate thing is of the MRAs I've encounered, they don't recognize the toxic masculinity aspect and patriarchial culture and how those connect to the repressed emotions, higher suicide and lower help-seeking rates, etc. The bring up the points of higher suicide, male rape victims, etc. but use those to talk about how ignored they are compared to women.

This of course circles back to the issue of feminism being exclusionary. Is it really? Do "legitimate" MRAs not know how to seek out feminists actively working on this issues? Why don't we hear about feminists doing more for those on the male side that's also negatively affected by this patriarchy and toxic masculinity?

I do think MRAs raise some good points, but they have no understanding of feminism & harmful patriarchal effects on both men and women either through their own willful ignorance, the alleged exclusionary nature of the feminist movement,or a combination of both.

[Anakin McFly]

The worst thing is the term 'female privilege', which is really just benevolent sexism - like not making young women go to war because people don't think women would make good soldiers and are just fragile flowers who would just fall apart and cry when the shooting starts.

I remember there was a viral thread on reddit about Swedish feminists opening up he first rape crisis centre/shelter for male victims in that country, so there are certainly feminists working on that stuff, contrary to their beliefs that feminists love the thought of men getting raped. I think there might be a lot of confirmation bias going on - when feminists are working on stuff that affect men, MRAs assume that they obviously aren't feminists, because feminists hate men. I'm sure I've seen sentiments to that effect before.

But meanwhile, the harm done to women by misogyny far outweighs and is generally much more serious and urgent than that done to men, that it makes sense to prioritize and focus most if not all of their efforts on women.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

I remember there was a viral thread on reddit about Swedish feminists opening up he first rape crisis centre/shelter for male victims in that country, so there are certainly feminists working on that stuff, contrary to their beliefs that feminists love the thought of men getting raped. I think there might be a lot of confirmation bias going on - when feminists are working on stuff that affect men, MRAs assume that they obviously aren't feminists, because feminists hate men. I'm sure I've seen sentiments to that effect before.

Except I haven't heard about the center/shelter, so I think it's more ignorance than confirmation bias. And an MRA did raise a fair point. Feminists can bring their issues and achievements for women to the forefront of traditional media rather easily. Here, the only thing we have to go for their achievements for men is a reddit thread? I think if the feminist movement did a much better job at touting such achievements in more traditional media, there'd be less MRA's.

That said, you are right as you state in your later paragraph, that it makes sense to focus on the harm done by misogyny, which I think is where the feeling of exclusion is coming from. Achievements for legitimate men's issues aren't being covered and as a result, these people remain ignorant. As azzy said, men won't look for anything if it's not immediately in our line of sight.

[Dr_Liszt]

The problem is that women voices are the ones who are silenced. It's women who have to fight against established power, men don't. Men have power, they don't have to fight for their opinions to be heard, they have that freedom, that's their privilege. That's why it's anti-feminist to give space to men in this issue, what you are essentially doing is "men voices are heard over women, so we meed to make more men voices being heard." What you need to do is make women's voices as powerful as men's are.

What the whole MRA does as Anakin say is "Oh men are forced to go to war, women don't, OPRESHUN!" and it's done in a way that they are afraid of women getting more power nitpicking the aspects in which the patriarchy affects them negatively, while also ignoring the aspects that give them power. They claim that men getting raped is worse that a woman getting raped without analyzing why society is that way. It's like they want equality but keeping the status quo. You can't have it both ways. Reminds me of that video I posted long ago about how schools are failing boys, and aels said "but what about all the times in which schools failed girls?" The system has failed girls for hundreds and hundreds of years and still continues to do so.

I know some MRA might be ignorant about feminism, but reading about it is not too hard, as long as you don't get your feminist education from thundef00t and amazing atheist. I for one, have never encountered a feminist going all "anti-male" in all my internet experience.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

The problem is that women voices are the ones who are silenced...What you need to do is make women's voices as powerful as men's are.

So what's the solution to make that happen?

[aels]

Is it really anti-feminist though? Part of the reason MRAs exist is because of that exclusion. They're on the outside looking in, and as a result I think contributes in part to the 99%/1% ratio (based on aels' estimates) we're seeing of misogynists to people who don't quite understand how the culture or system we have is harmful to them as well. I'm certainly not saying feminists should switch focus on helping men, but an open discussion on these issues could go a long way to switching those numbers around.

My feeling is that a lot of MRAs (or at least a lot of the ones I have encountered) are not speaking from a place of legitimate exclusion and disenfranchisement, they're talking from a place of massively fucking hating women. Not only is inclusion into feminist spaces and discussions not going to remove their bigotry (if anything it will inflame it - recall that we are dealing with people whose disapproval is coming from a place of hatred, rather than facts, and who presumably do not deal well with criticism) but you are then purposefully inviting people who want to do you harm into a safe space. I don't want most MRAs in feminist spaces in the same way that I'm sure a lot of black activists don't want their circles packed with KKK members. And the fact that we, as a society, tend to prioritise male voices and opinions to the exclusion of female voices and opinions means that there is a risk that by saying 'Hey, MRAs, come join us in our lady spaces!', you are then reduced to a situation where all you are hearing is men talking loudly about the things that affect men. And if I want that, I will look at literally almost all of the rest of society oh my God.

Which is not to say that feminist spaces don't or won't include men, they generally do. But the men that are in those spaces are men who are already aware of society's tendency to promote male voices at the expense of female ones and are therefore pretty good at knowing when to shut up and listen (and are much more likely to respond well to criticism). (Theoretically) (Because some of the worst misogynists you will ever meet are self-declared male feminists who believe that saying 'But I'm a feminist' excludes them from any criticism whatsoever) (This is not how you ally)

Except I haven't heard about the center/shelter, so I think it's more ignorance than confirmation bias. And an MRA did raise a fair point. Feminists can bring their issues and achievements for women to the forefront of traditional media rather easily. Here, the only thing we have to go for their achievements for men is a reddit thread? I think if the feminist movement did a much better job at touting such achievements in more traditional media, there'd be less MRA's.

That said, you are right as you state in your later paragraph, that it makes sense to focus on the harm done by misogyny, which I think is where the feeling of exclusion is coming from. Achievements for legitimate men's issues aren't being covered and as a result, these people remain ignorant. As azzy said, men won't look for anything if it's not immediately in our line of sight.

But here you are placing the onus of education on women activists. You are saying that in order to be palatable to MRAs, women must not only work for men but must then take special pains to educate those men on what they have done for them. If feminists have a prominent voice in traditional media (and I'm not sure they do), how do dudes think women got that prominent voice? Do they think that men, very nicely, offered it up to them out of the goodness of their hearts? Every single right or voice that a woman has in today's society is one she bought for herself or other women bought for her. Dudes, if you want to promote your dude achievements (and really, we don't hear enough about men's achievements), make your space. Promote your shit. People will listen to you. You are men. If you want to know what feminism has done for men lately, use your eyes and do your Googling. It is not the fault or the burden of women that you won't look for anything that isn't in your line of sight. You're a grown ass adult. If you can't Google, we've made a terrible mistake putting you in charge of most political, social, and economic structures.

While we're at it, MRAs, maybe stop claiming that you won't care about feminists because feminists don't care about you and aren't helping you. Help yourselves. Because I see a lot of griping about how feminism is ruining everything and destroying all the rights of men and no one cares about problem X, Y, and Z which disproportionately affects men and very little actually working on these problems. I see a lot of people working against feminism but almost no one working *for* men. You don't need to hate feminism to set up a shelter or site for male victims of domestic abuse. You don't need women's permission to enter men's spaces and promote resources for men suffering from mental illness. You don't need anything to do with feminism to encourage your male friends and families to be open about their emotions. Feminism doesn't care about you? *You* don't care about you! And that's why I am suspicious of your movement and anyone who associates with it, because you claim it's about advocacy and not woman-hating but I mostly see no advocacy and an awful lot of woman-hating.*

If I have to turn into someone's mother and do their homework for them - because even though they're apparently much more logical and reasonable than women, they still don't know how to look shit up on Google - if I have to do that to win over a few allies... fuck em. I'll pass. Like, it's not enough to have to deal with patriarchal bullshit (which is a physically and intellectually and emotionally exhausting full time job, when you're also trying to process all the shit you've internalised throughout your life), you've also got to carve out a big slice of your time and attention to dedicate to men so that they don't turn into MRAs and follow you about the internet posting rape threats, and then you've got to venture into spaces where a lot of men hate you in order to preach the good word about how your struggle for acceptance and validation and basic equality is also a hot scoop for them.

And I'm saying 'you' and getting angry but I don't mean 'you' in the sense of *you* Apollo, I am being general, and also I am not mad at you. I am just generally mad because feminist harpies gonna harp.


*And if anyone is about to say 'Maybe you're just not aware of all the good work that MRAs are doing for men', I am about to fire back with the fact that hey, it's not my fault if I don't know about the work MRAs are doing and maybe if MRAs want me to like them, maybe they need to educate me.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

"Do they think that men, very nicely, offered it up to them out of the goodness of their hearts"

Unfortunately many MRA's think that. You wouldn't believe this one guy on IMDb who believes in the whole "not all men mantra" and wants to give credit to men for making laws that treat women like human beings, all the while ignoring that many of those laws aren't being enforced or aren't effective due to the still prevalent patriarchal culture.

" If you can't Google, we've made a terrible mistake putting you in charge of most political, social, and economic structures. "

I thought that was evident without Google.

"And if anyone is about to say 'Maybe you're just not aware of all the good work that MRAs are doing for men', I am about to fire back with the fact that hey, it's not my fault if I don't know about the work MRAs are doing and maybe if MRAs want me to like them, maybe they need to educate me."

well maybe they do.

"Which is not to say that feminist spaces don't or won't include men, they generally do"

I guess I'm like many MRAs in that I've never really sought out these spaces.

"are therefore pretty good at knowing when to shut up and listen"

Point taken.

[aels]

I wasn't telling you to shut up and listen by the way! I'm really sorry if I was inadvertently mean. You were making good points, I am just too fighty sometimes.

You wouldn't believe this one guy on IMDb who believes in the whole "not all men mantra" and wants to give credit to men for making laws that treat women like human beings, all the while ignoring that many of those laws aren't being enforced or aren't effective due to the still prevalent patriarchal culture.

Ugh, guys like that are the worst. I've dealt with a few dudes who were all 'You should thank men for letting you vote and work in the first place!' like, champ, who the fuck do you think was *stopping* women from voting and working? If you're giving women rights, it's because those rights were taken away from them!

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

I wasn't telling you to shut up and listen by the way!

That was meant to be a joke and I failed miserably as I forgot the emoticon.

[aels]

I would have still worried that I'd upset you anyway bc I am paranoid.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

I would have still worried that I'd upset you anyway bc I am paranoid.

Well as a woman, should always be worried that you've upset a man .

[Anakin McFly]

what aels said.

What MRAs are suggesting is to get women to tell men to stop treating other men like crap. It would be far more effective in every way for men to tell other men to stop treating men like crap.

[Dr_Liszt]

The problem is that women voices are the ones who are silenced...What you need to do is make women's voices as powerful as men's are.

So what's the solution to make that happen?

Stop silencing women's voices??

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

Stop silencing women's voices??

And to do that, what needs to happen?

[aels]

We kill all the men. Wait, what was the question? Doesn't matter, we kill all the men.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

So yeah, I've apparently just encountered an MRA who questions the existence of the patriarchy and thinks boys are suffering in schools dominated by female teachers.

Nevermind that our culture as basically made teachers nothing more than a step above donesticicity. That our culture sees women as the caregivers and that part of that caregiver responsibility is to teach.