Things that should NOT be a debate: First Worldism

[Islandmur]

2) There are lot of arrogant, Western assumptions about what it means to have a maid, a gated compound, and a driver in a developing country. In Nigeria, having a maid does not necessarily mean you're rich as it does in "the west". Middle-class and lower middle-class people have maids and drivers in Nigeria. And people have gated compounds because they don't have the same type of home security and police response as we have in Europe/U.S. It's not as much a sign of affluence in Nigeria as it is in America and Europe, where you are pretty much a millionaire(or super upper class) if you have these services. I don't know how it is in Guatemala, but I suspect it's similar.

Yeap it's the same in Haiti, I have two maids and a cook (though I cook a lot myself lol), it's actually part of what I do to improve things, it's one thing my "friend" on the other thread criticized about me, that I pay them more than the minimum salary. But one of them goes to school to learn cooking, the other I put her kids in a better school so they may end up in better jobs. The minimum pay is not even $100 per month here, it's like 88$.

One of my maid has her own maid, that takes care of the kids while she works. (after they come home frome school) I think she pays that person (usually a younger girl) 20$ / month.

Most people in Haiti abuse the people that work for them though, they have to be there by 6am (the latest) and often don't leave before 8 pm. They get one day off a week. Don't get food / no benefits of any kind. Some will pay the inscription fees of school at the beginning of the school year but that's it.

I'm not rich, heck before hte 20th i'm often broke specially these days when I have no steady work. I have no savings (all dried up with birth of Nate lol) but until i'm forced to I won't let them go, because I know there is no way they will find work these days. One of my maid is sure not to find work (the one with kids) because a truck ran over her so she's now disabled, i took her in because she doesn't want charity.

Now i've digressed enough and mostly telling how i live... so i'll stop.

[Cinemachinery]

What the bloody hell is going on?

The result of people trying to determine who stands where on the ladder of tiered oppression when zoomed out to a global perspective.

Edit: never mind you already pretty much said that with the "messy" comment.

[Cinemachinery]

Last sentence is a double negative.

And I get what Liszt is saying anc also get that global perspective is important, but it's complicated.

For example, walmart notoriously exploits Third-world labor, and poor people in America take advantage by shopping at walmart. But you can't really judge poor folks who don't have too many options in desperate situations. But, then again, they are still taken advantage...they're just not the people who's heads you should be coming for.

And I think Liszt is well aware that she too benefits from exploitation. And even as a rich person has moral ground to criticize imperialists for destroying her country.

I may be wrong, but I think the problem is the "you, YOU, you people, people of this board, YOU SPOILED BRATS, etc..." I don't think it's with the contents of the message.

#notallposters

[thesalmonofdoubt]

Az, you bought a house in the hood?

Gentrification much?

Yeah, so basically they did knock down a load of working class homes so they could build some nice shiny houses and lure the middle classes in. Gentrification ftw!!

But I'm guessing (behind your security gates and the CCTV) you can't see the displaced poor people, so it's not too much of an issue?

I can see them sitting on their sofas in the front garden, drinking beer and enjoying their welfare cheques! Bloody moochers

On a slightly different tack (your post has inspired me)... I read somewhere that Australia issues it's benefits/welfare payments on pre-paid debit cards. And there was a fuss at the time that this stigmatises people on benefits because people will know as soon as they present a "Welfare" card to pay with.

But debit cards can be blocked (and I don't know if the Australian government already does this) from certain types of purchases (gambling, pornography, alcohol, etc). How would we feel about benefits/welfare cards being blocked from certain types of purchase?

I realise I've gone fairly off topic here...

I don't this is what we do here .. not that I have ever received welfare to know first hand but I'm pretty sure the dole is just paid to your account like normal

[Cassius Clay]

2) There are lot of arrogant, Western assumptions about what it means to have a maid, a gated compound, and a driver in a developing country. In Nigeria, having a maid does not necessarily mean you're rich as it does in "the west". Middle-class and lower middle-class people have maids and drivers in Nigeria. And people have gated compounds because they don't have the same type of home security and police response as we have in Europe/U.S. It's not as much a sign of affluence in Nigeria as it is in America and Europe, where you are pretty much a millionaire(or super upper class) if you have these services. I don't know how it is in Guatemala, but I suspect it's similar.

Yeap it's the same in Haiti, I have two maids and a cook (though I cook a lot myself lol), it's actually part of what I do to improve things, it's one thing my "friend" on the other thread criticized about me, that I pay them more than the minimum salary. But one of them goes to school to learn cooking, the other I put her kids in a better school so they may end up in better jobs. The minimum pay is not even $100 per month here, it's like 88$.

One of my maid has her own maid, that takes care of the kids while she works. (after they come home frome school) I think she pays that person (usually a younger girl) 20$ / month.

Most people in Haiti abuse the people that work for them though, they have to be there by 6am (the latest) and often don't leave before 8 pm. They get one day off a week. Don't get food / no benefits of any kind. Some will pay the inscription fees of school at the beginning of the school year but that's it.

I'm not rich, heck before hte 20th i'm often broke specially these days when I have no steady work. I have no savings (all dried up with birth of Nate lol) but until i'm forced to I won't let them go, because I know there is no way they will find work these days. One of my maid is sure not to find work (the one with kids) because a truck ran over her so she's now disabled, i took her in because she doesn't want charity.

Now i've digressed enough and mostly telling how i live... so i'll stop.

Yeah, westerners may not realize just how cheap these services are in many developing countries...or may not have an appreciation for the necessity of some of them(like gated compounds).

[Dr_Liszt]

I'm high middle class. My family is one of those annoying people that say "my parents came from europe with nothing and look what they've done!!!" when they ignore the fact the government actually gave them lands and privileges to attract european immigration. So my grandparents had lands in a well off area where they set up small businesses. An ice cream shop and a blacksmith. My uncles somewhat got involved into politics. My dad started a workshop on air conditioner who at the time, was the only business in the city, so that's how he made the money. My uncles on the other hand, decided to play the game of thrones for real and that's how they got their money.

I grew up in a small house in the city, on a middle class neighborhood, which was also gated. Around 10 years ago, every single neighborhood and street started to gate themselves because criminals and police started to become the same thing. And where I was it had an 'invasion' on the front, and the perimeter wasn't closed, so it wasn't safe to live there. (It's still isn't safe, last year they found a 3 year old baby dead with her organs missing, a block away from where I used to live.) So my dad decided to buy for new land, because houses are more expensive, and I don't know how he did it, but he kind of knew this area would developed. He bought the land pretty cheap when there was only cows around and forests, and he made the house by himself. My uncle was the architect, and my dad pretty much did everything else. Installed the electricity, directed the construction, the water, the walls, the windows, etc. So this house pretty much came cheap for us, because my dad is smart and he was extremely lucky to have held a 'monopoly' for like 20 years. I moved here when I was 16, by then the whole area developed really fast, now a piece of land here costs around 100,000$USD. When he got them they were 15,000 USD when the quetzals were 4 for 1 dollar.

My mom also comes from a very working class background. My grandmother taught at pre-k and my grandfather who was actually an "orphan", worked as a janitor in a bank until he got promoted to secretary or something, in a coastal town near Mexico. And when they met, my dad wasn't even starting on his workshop. They practically started the thing together. Nowadays, there is thousands of competition so they don't make as much as they used to. I told my mom that the biggest mistake they made was that they didn't actually try to monopolize it by law when my uncles could have helped us. Then I'd be a real rich person that owns a chain and I'd be in the Northern Wastelands of England right now, I probably wouldn't even have studied dentistry.

And they don't make that much money, they make around 30,000 pounds a year (you'd have to retract wages and taxes, so the total profit, I don't know). We made the calculation with Michael last year. So he knows I'm not a heiress unless I want to sell my properties, which even then, it still wouldn't be that much. Unless he wants to live here, with the traffic and the hills collapsing and the motorthieves and the drug dealers and the religious zealots and etc, etc, etc.

So I don't know if it's proper to say all of this, but is not like I grew up in a mansion, I actually saw my parents grow by themselves and almost all of central america offered that to people (if you were white, educated, and extremely lucky. If you were born a mayan you were still fucked.) and now it's all fucked up over here. The peace agreements, the FTA, the minery,the hidroplants, essentially all the post-war consequences, really destroyed this country.

So sorry if I offended people. It certainly wasn't my intent and I'd have expressed my frustration differently.

[Boomer]

So sorry if I offended people. It certainly wasn't my intent and I'd have expressed my frustration differently.

I don't really know what's going on in this thread (is anyone really debating living in a first world country is easier than living in a third world one?), but if it was your intent not to offend people it sure wasn't reflected in your OP.

[Islandmur]

Me i just love talking about life here differs from 1st world countries :). But I would not like to live in most first world countries maybe belgium ? it sounds nice.

[BruceSmith78]

HM I find this thread concerning, we seem to be shouting down someone who has been on the receiving end of oppression, simply because their life isn't absolutely awful. We're all sitting around on a forum discussing stuff, roofs over our heads, can eat each day; this privilege dick-length competition is silly. I don't think Liszt is saying you're bad people or that our problems in the first world aren't worth discussing or criticising, BUT that it ought to be put in the perspective of a larger, global system where overall we are the winner.

At the risk of trivialising another contentious issue, the parallels to the white privilege thing are a bit noticeable for me. How many people shouted down Castor, Achilles, and Stelios because their lives were fine and the white people had problems too? I know some of us from the first world aren't exactly fucking rolling in money from our imperial conquests, except Brandon who lives on agricultural subsidies while shouting down big government, but I think if we take a step back we can see Sophia's general point (and anger). I was raised by a single mother in a council estate, poor, and this no doubt limited my options in life. Aels has a disability and a was raised similarly poor and this limits her options. Buttz is limited by an entire economic and political sphere of oppression across a continent by the world's only remaining superpower, and on top of that has been attacked by an armed biker (in a place where kidnap, murder, and rape by armed bikers is pretty common...), and chose to work helping poorer people. Not saying she's a saint (she's a pretty awful person overall) and sure she lives more comfortably than those she 'defends', but I think we are all mature enough to reflect on our advantages and disadvantage, be that based on nationality, gender, race, or upbringing.

So let's all hold hands and give each other oral sex. Get on that Castor, yea...

Gay.

Also, it's Sofia.

[Anakin McFly]

Seconding/thirding the maid thing, and not just in developing countries. Lots of middle-class families in Singapore also have maids because labour is really cheap here. We don't have minimum wage; the current salary at McDonald's is $3/hour last I checked, which is about US$2. I had a series of maids growing up though we were middle class, then we stopped when my father lost his job. Now we're lower-upper class and have a couple of part-time maids who come over for 2 hours each Saturday.

It sometimes goes both ways with wealth in developed/developing countries. I have relatives in Malaysia who are technically poorer than my family but they own large mansions and multiple cars, because things like land are way cheaper there. Whereas here we're in a relatively small apartment with one car, because Singapore apparently has the highest cost of living in the world. Also the cheapest car here are roughly US$60k.

[Blade Azaezel]

I think the problem is the rant is directed at the few people on the internet who would actually agree and 'get it', but it's worded in a way that makes it sound personal to them, rather than the first world in general. [/tonepolicing]

[Dr_Liszt]

I was directing it at you, for making me read your book. Which I am. I promise.

[OurGloriousLeader]

Also, it's Sofia.

pst

i know

[Blade Azaezel]

I was directing it at you, for making me read your book. Which I am. I promise.

More lies from the 3rd world. You guys are probably faking poverty just so you can get more money from us poor, white folk.

[Dr_Liszt]

Me i just love talking about life here differs from 1st world countries :). But I would not like to live in most first world countries maybe belgium ? it sounds nice.

Hmm... Belgium is kind of nice. I'd like Bahamas or a small island from the Caribbean. Like Aruba. Not sure if they are first world.

I was directing it at you, for making me read your book. Which I am. I promise.

More lies from the 3rd world. You guys are probably faking poverty just so you can get more money from us poor, white folk.

That is almost true.

But is also a business more than a charity for you too, so even that is fucked up by the first world.

[Blade Azaezel]

Me i just love talking about life here differs from 1st world countries :). But I would not like to live in most first world countries maybe belgium ? it sounds nice.

Hmm... Belgium is kind of nice. I'd like Bahamas or a small island from the Caribbean. Like Aruba. Not sure if they are first world.

I was directing it at you, for making me read your book. Which I am. I promise.

More lies from the 3rd world. You guys are probably faking poverty just so you can get more money from us poor, white folk.

That is almost true.

But is also a business more than a charity for you too, so even that is fucked up by the first world.

Did you know that Ireland is a third world country?

[Islandmur]

When I see images of Ireland I think it's so beautiful, but for some reason I also think it's cold and damp... and my sinuses can't stand the damp.

[Dr_Liszt]

Don't come to Guatemala. Everything is damp here. The cold is damp, the hot is damp, you can live in a dessert and be used to extreme heat but when you go to Peten you will suffocate because of how damp in is.

But as a vacation is nice.

[Blade Azaezel]

Don't come to Guatemala. Everything is damp here. The cold is damp, the hot is damp, you can live in a dessert and be used to extreme heat but when you go to Peten you will suffocate because of how damp in is.

But as a vacation is nice.

What kind of dessert? I want to live in an apple crumble!

[Dr_Liszt]

Shit.

It's Tiramisu, because it's the only one I like and it has coffee on it.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

Belgium's great. The beer is fantastic - easily some of the best in the world. The only problem with it is that whilst most of the people you'll meet can speak English, if you want to work there for most decent jobs they'll expect you to be able to speak at least two of French, Flemish, Dutch and/or German fluently. As well as English. Now my French and German aren't bad, but they're not fluent. And nobody outside Belgian/the Netherlands bothers to learn Flemish or Dutch - why would you?

Ireland's great to visit, but their economy is in the shit - they are one of the "third world economies" (comparatively speaking) of Europe. And whilst they desperately want to be politically progressive, hundreds of years of Catholic church domination hangs over them and they can be a bit backward and overly conservative about some things. And it does rain a lot, which if you're not used to endless cold, grey, rainy days might get you down after a while, but I grew up on the west coast of Scotland which gets exactly the same weather, so I'm used to it. Great place to visit - wouldn't want to live there.

[Islandmur]

I speak french and english fluently, my german is a bit rusty though

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

Go to the southern half of Belgium and you should be okay then - that's the predominantly French speaking region. The only tiny fly in the ointment is that the very best beer comes from the Flemish speaking parts, but the beer from the south is still damn good.

On the other hand, if you prefer wine - go to a different country.

[BruceSmith78]

Also, it's Sofia.

pst

i know

pst

my post was only half serious - the half about you being gay