People are fucked in the head

[Gypsy-Vanner]

I swear, the amount of people who are completely ignorant to their confirmation bias is annoying. On my feed today I got that "I'm a black dude and got pulled over by white cops and they patted me on the head and scratched behind my ears because I licked their feet" showing up 5 times. And all the whitey's sharing the story like it's some kind of great mountain of enlightenment that proves that cops ain't bad because you know if a black guy gets pulled over and isn't shot that must mean all those crying foul are stupid "liberals".

How much more evidence needs to be stuffed in people's faces before they realize that there is a problem and that blacks are routinely discriminated and murdered by police? Fucking A people!

And this story about the 16 year old who was violently assaulted by a police officer? Yeah...I just don't get why so many in society believe law enforcement agents are immune from the laws and should be applauded when they stop a "thug" from killing innocent white people. And get this, the NRA just released a statement about gun control and how...wait for it...it's not NRA members or supporters doing the murdering, it's all them "thugs". <they actually used that word in their statement.

I'll be straight here, we have an obligation as a society to cede a certain amount of authority to specific individuals so that they can do their jobs effectively. However...HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <emphasis on however.... we also as a society have an obligation to hold those specific individuals to much higher standards compared to any other member of the community because of the fact that we place our very lives in their hands to protect.

I absolutely hate it when people say "their are human too, they make mistakes" because their mistakes can result in the harm or death of another human being. That is why we hold them to higher standards! That is why when a mistake does happen that we MUST address it and we MUST release that individual from their duties.

I hate it when people say that officers put their lives on the line every day so if they get a bit violent or they shoot before speaking well, that's ok because danger and all. NO NO NO NO FUCKING NO! NOBODY fucking forced them to join the police but if they do go that route then we better fucking train them and then test them based on standards that would remove those "mistakes" or give the boot to any that get violent just because some 90lb 16 year old teenager was being mouthy.

Jesus Christ people READ A FUCKING BOOK! Go online and READ SOME FUCKING ARTICLES WRITTEN BY FUCKING EXPERTS WHO HAVE EMPIRICAL DATA TO BACK UP THEIR CLAIMS.

Ok, rant over.

[CashRules]

I don't think you can read racism into the NRA using the word thugs. They have a long history of using that word against anyone who supports gun-control or opposes them in any way. Their most infamous press release called the ATF "jack-booted thugs" and prompted Bush the elder to resign his membership. In this case they are right, the majority of murders are committed by thugs, many of whom have a badge.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

Western democracies police by consent. We don't employ huge armies of police and we don't empower them to use brutal, exjudicial powers to "enforce" law and order. The other side of the bargain is that the population co-operates and respects with the police.

And in most western democracies this largely works.

But this is rapidly breaking down in America. Through a combination of a blatantly racist police force brutalising and discriminating against segments of the population and through a growing section of the population feeling disenfranchised from mainstream society and therefore not seeing any reason to respect the police force you end up with a vicious circle of ever increasing tension and conflict.

The law needs to be enforced. The population needs to respect the people enforcing the law. The people enforcing the law need to be fair about the way they do it and to respect the population they serve. There are faults on both sides and the dire economic situation at the moment is only exacerbating the issues and limiting the solutions.

So yes - police officers that break the law should absolutely be made an example of - and in this day and age of most of our lives being videoed all the instances of police racism and violence that we see should end up with a prosecution - every single one, because this isn't going to change until the police learn that their actions have consequences too.

But in of itself that will not sort this out, because 90lb 16 year olds will think that they can continue to mouthy with impunity. They need their own communities to teach them that it's not acceptable to be mouthy to authority figures, which in turn continues to grow into more serious disrespect both individually and collectively later. And they need to learn that they need to respect society and the structures of society as well.

Basically - it all comes down to mutual respect rather than just blaming the other side for all the problems and using them to justify your own bad behaviour...

[Derived Absurdity]

But in of itself that will not sort this out, because 90lb 16 year olds will think that they can continue to mouthy with impunity. They need their own communities to teach them that it's not acceptable to be mouthy to authority figures, which in turn continues to grow into more serious disrespect both individually and collectively later. And they need to learn that they need to respect society and the structures of society as well.

Jesus...

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

But in of itself that will not sort this out, because 90lb 16 year olds will think that they can continue to mouthy with impunity. They need their own communities to teach them that it's not acceptable to be mouthy to authority figures, which in turn continues to grow into more serious disrespect both individually and collectively later. And they need to learn that they need to respect society and the structures of society as well.

Jesus...

Yep.

As I wrote that post I thought "someone's going to pick out this line and ignore the rest of it... should I? Nah... nobody would cherry pick that blatantly would they?"...

[Derived Absurdity]

I really hoping you're joking right now.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

How so? You think that their communities should encourage them to not respect any sort of authority figures? Or that a kid being disrespectful to public authority (be it a teacher, a policeman or whatever) shouldn't attract any sort of admonishment?

Because I was brought up to respect everyone, weren't you?

I'm in no way condoning how the policeman acted in this particular case. I'm making a wider point about mutual respect.

[sikax]

The onus of maintaining peace is on the trained professionals whose job it is to uphold peace and protect citizens, not a citizen who may or may not be disrespectful. No level (no level) of verbal disrespect deserves violence from anyone, let alone the fucking police. The police are supposed to be the calm and collected and rational among the civilians who are not. That's the point. They're generally too hot-headed and trigger-happy. It's disgusting to think that a 16-year-old "should have been more respectful".

[Derived Absurdity]

I was responding to your claims of cherry picking. I don't really see how responding to one specific thing is cherry picking, unless you think I have to respond to everything you said... that paragraph was the only part of your post that really bothered me, so that's why I only responded to it.

But I have to go for now, so for now I'll just say that reflexively respecting authority figures is a bad thing, and that many authority figures don't deserve respect at all, and that encouraging people to respect authority is a large part of why the world is so fucked. Also people shouldn't really have to respect society if society keeps providing compelling evidence that it doesn't respect them.

More later!

edit: basically what sikax said. Bye!

[Islandmur]

Opiate: Do you really think minorities teach their children to be confrontational with authorities? I would think because of all the abuse it would be the contrary.

[Anakin McFly]

Opiate just seems to be saying:

1) The law should be fair and just.
2) People should respect the law.

which I agree with. In the case that #1 isn't true, which is the case here, then #2 isn't necessary because it is contingent on that. But ideally both would happen.

[thesalmonofdoubt]

The law needs to be enforced. The population needs to respect the people enforcing the law. The people enforcing the law need to be fair about the way they do it and to respect the population they serve. There are faults on both sides and the dire economic situation at the moment is only exacerbating the issues and limiting the solutions.

While I don't disagree that this is the absolute best way forward, in this particular circumstance we have the community at large and people charged with maintaining order over said community - only one group is acting in the capacity of a professional who is (I assume - or at least, ideally) trained to deal with an unruly public. The onus really does fall on the Law enforcement to deal with real world situations in the best possible way rather than to only react well when the situation chugs along to an ideal.

And the police aren't unique in this duty - Nurses, teachers, doctors, all sorts of people find themselves at the mercy of people behaving badly because that's what people do for any given variety of situations.. and each should react to these situations professionally as per their training in their capacity as people who are trained to deal with unruly situations with the least possible harm.

I think this is the point where the conversation became derailed. You're points are all sound but that closing paragraph sounded a bit like there is an assumption that both parties play equally into any given situation - no one expects a lack of admonishment, the entire point of the criticism is that the admonishment is non-proportional, and that a cop with authority acts as a different class of agent in these transactions with a higher duty of care than a disrespectful teenager.

[Anakin McFly]

actually now I'm just mad at people who don't follow rules. Especially when they then get away with it because of privilege. Like how during the outrage over Ahmed and the clock, all these white people were chiming in on how they'd done so many worse things in school - including trying to build actual bombs - and at worst maybe got detention (one teacher actually gave him bomb-making tips). But why were they even doing all that stuff in the first place? What's this fascination with disobedience?

[thesalmonofdoubt]

actually now I'm just mad at people who don't follow rules. Especially when they then get away with it because of privilege.

I'm all about following rules and it irks me to no end when people don't and get away with not .. it doesn't even matter whether or not it has to do with privilege or just cos they can't be arsed playing their part in a social contract.

I think the point isn't that there is a fascination with disobedience as much as there is an expectation of it and when there is disobedience and when someone is specifically charged with dealing with that - you assume that person is going to act professionally and with a commensurate measure of force rather than just go ape shit or get high on their authority.

[Anakin McFly]

Yeah, I agree with that - even if she had been disrespectful, it doesn't excuse what the cop did, and in fact he himself was violating a code of conduct because that was not at all acceptable behaviour.

[Dr_Liszt]

Maybe I shouldn't be commenting on this, but it's pretty clear the problem here is that people are being marginalized by the system, forced to mold into the system who oppresses them, then wanting them to follow said system. You can't expect people to be respectful of a system that marginalizes them nor is respectful of their culture, heritage and demands. It's not obedience what we are talking about, it's plain forceful submission. And that's all I'm saying.

[Anakin McFly]

Then what about cases of disobedience from people who aren't part of any marginalised group?

It also feels like a stretch to assume that every case of disobedience from a marginalised person is a response to an oppressive system, especially when you're talking about teenagers.

EDIT: I also like the principle of doing the right thing even when others don't, because that's on their own conscience and it's not your business to stoop to that level. Love your enemies, do good to those that harm you, etc, though I guess that's a Christian thing and a lot down to how I was brought up, so idk.

[Cassius Clay]

"I'm not making excuses for fucked up shit, but I'm gonna go ahead and make excuses for fucked up shit."

Can't have it both ways...there is no middle ground...there is no "vicious circle"...there is no examining of the victim's behavior without implication of blame.

[sikax]

It's things like this that really make me sad Malcolm X died before anything could get figured out. We're all fucked, and no one in the public eye is smart enough to say anything worth listening to. The only medium where anything reasonable is said that reaches people is the internet, which, unfortunately, is also home to idiotic bullshit. The question is: How do we improve police training/screening? The question has absolutely NOTHING to do with any civilian's behavior unless it is explicitly aggressive. EXPLICITLY. Not "He might have been trying to hit me with his car, so I shot him." Or, "Yeah, she was sitting in her chair, but she had an attitude, so I choked her and threw her on the ground." None of that is acceptable. God damn it. Fuck the police. In every way. When do we get to declare the police as a domestic terrorist organization killing innocent people? That's what terrorists are, right? Fuckin genocidal maniacs, the lot of them.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

The whole point I was trying to make was that civilised societies work on the basis of "policing by consent". And for that to work the police have to be held accountable for their accounts. Absolutely. But if the people they're policing point blank refuse to even consider giving them any respect at any point in time then they are not consenting to being policed. So (rightly or wrongly) from that point onwards the system is doomed to fail.

Both sides have to try to meet in the "middle". If the police suddenly became a model force but disaffected populations still refused to consent to be policed it wouldn't work. That "middle" may be a lot closer to one side or the other, but they're both going to have to move, because for any sort of long term solution to have a chance both will have to learn to respect the other.

[Whitey]

In an ideal situation you'd have fair and responsible police, and their authority would be respected, and when someone is breaking the law, people would respect that the police have to do certain things in order to maintain the peace.

But I'd find it hard to tell groups that regularly suffer discrimination that they should maintain a respectful attitude to the police, if they've every reason to think they're being discriminated against. I mean, I think it's dumb if I see someone resisting police(in cases when the police are following the rules), or giving them abuse, then complaining about discrimination, but the whole system is fucked so what seems a dumb response to me is actually perfectly reasonable. If I know the system is broken and not in my favour, what's the point in attempting to abide by the system? Sure, if people were to become cooperative and respectful of the authority of the police, we'd see fewer incidents, but we'd still see quite a lot of them, as the system is irreversibly fucked.

The only way the policing system in America can be fixed is if it's totally dismantled and started again, because it's so far gone. Because anything else is a half measure and you aren't going to persuade those who have suffered at the hands of a racist system to meet them in the middle when they have no reason to trust the authorities. I doubt this change will happen though.

[Gendo]

It's such an obvious strawman. "According to the liberals, I should be dead". No. No one has ever made any argument anything along the lines of "every interaction between an armed black man and a police officer will end with the black man being killed". Does this guy seriously think that that's what's being said?

[Cassius Clay]

The fucked up thing is that it's not even true that black people defy authority more. Black people receive severe consequences for defying authority. And part of the reason black parents tend to rely on physical punishment(often even abusive) is because of this historical dynamic. To prevent their kids from getting killed...it's survival.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/there- ... 1739019535

[CashRules]

I'm not sure where this obey authority idea comes from. Little social progress has ever been made by people following the rules and many of us on this board admittedly defy authority and break the rules every time we fire up a joint.

[Cassius Clay]

If you don't obey authority, you might be beaten or killed.

...it's just pragmatism.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

I'm not sure where this obey authority idea comes from. Little social progress has ever been made by people following the rules and many of us on this board admittedly defy authority and break the rules every time we fire up a joint.

The idea relates to "policing by consent" where it is central. Because without it you either have to forget any form of policing or you have to impose a brutal police state.

No-one wants a police state.

So the other alternative would to try to find a solution where people can come to terms with a reformed, more accountable police force and respect it enough in its new state that they were willing to let it police them.

Now some of the comments on this thread seem to suggest that people seem to think that the police are and always will be the enemy. So perhaps they would prefer no form of policing whatsoever...



The police are effectively meant to be a public service. And when you're not happy with a public service you don't call for it's abolition or stop using it, you put people in charge of it who will remove/replace the faulty parts of the structure and get it working the way it's meant to me working again.

[BruceSmith78]

I think people took exception to the victim-blamey tone of that one paragraph in your initial post. It came across as, "yes, police shouldn't behave like crazed, hot-headed, racist maniacs, but some of the blame also falls on their victims because they're kinda asking for it when they don't respect those fucking looney assholes."

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

Yeah I picked up on that.

But the whole "fuck the police forever!" attitude is frankly not helpful in the long term in my opinion.

[Dr_Liszt]

Cops enforce the system, if the system is fucked up, they will enforce fuckedupness. This is about the powerless at the mercy of legalized violence against them. It's the reason why minorities get harassed and punished by the police more, some of them even go out of their jurisdiction to hunt for minorities even if at the rich white neighborhoods extremely worse things are happening. So until the whole fuckedupness is fixed (which it won't because from what i've heard, it just keeps getting worse) asking to meet a middle ground is stupid.

Also this, regarding the beating of the black girl at the school:

Now its time you left wingers who ALWAYS bash the people who STOP wrong doers and give PASSES to those who CHOOSE to do wrong..... PAY ATTENTION!!!
You KNOW who you are!!! Police brutality Police brutality!!! you scream it first... seek facts (maybe) after!!!!
She was an ORPHAN!!! She was ABANDONED!!!
The cop "beat her up" ... He was KNOWN for being ABUSIVE!!
The children are all TERRIFIED OF HIM!!!!
Come on.. YOU saw these people!!! You SAW them type this CRAP!!!! All because they are anti authority.. and think people shouldn't have to follow rules....follow laws... ..
Well now we find out she HAS a mother... she HAS a grandmother... NOT an orphan... NOT abandoned... and THE STUDENTS LOVE THE COP!!!
They are protesting "HIS" treatment!!!!
Be honest about AT LEAST one thing!!! Who is in a BETTER position to judge this man who has been there SEVEN YEARS and has NEVER injured a child!!!
YOU and I or the freakin kids that see him every school day?!?!??!!
OMG they actually APPRECIATE having someone there who would put his life on the line and stand between THEM and the THUGS who refuse to be civil LIKE the rest of them!!
If you STILL.. after ALL of this.. still think YOU on your phone or computer screen are in a BETTER position to judge than the students who have ALL the information you and I have.. PLUS ten fold more ... well aren't you special...
(drops my mic and walks off the stage)

Do you know what I can do to someone with a pencil?
Especially someone who took repeated swings at my face just 2 mins before what we see un the video?

People who do not understand the concept of escalation should shush.
I don't care what she did to begin with, she kept escalating to the point of physical violence against a weak point (the guys face).

I think it's time we start killing people like that.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

Damn...I don't remember making this post I was fucking mad about the whole thing.

[Cinemachinery]

But the whole "fuck the police forever!" attitude is frankly not helpful in the long term in my opinion.

I mostly see this dynamic not from minorities (what kind of death wish would lead to thumbing your nose at a figure already more likely to shoot you for reaching for you wallet too quickly) but from cushy white suburbanites eager to prove their knowledge of the constitution in entirely unnecessary resistance to traffic stops. Or some rural types figuring any siren is a sign of jackboots.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

Don't forget pigfarmers.