Attacks in France vs. non-Western Countries

[Monk]

So in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in Paris, many people have shown strong support for Paris on social media. I'm sure most of you have seen it. I've also noticed, though, that there has been somewhat of a backlash to the all the support for France being expressed. The argument is that these types of terrorist attacks happen commonly in other, non-Western countries (e.g. Lebanon or Egypt) but that such tragedies never garner the type of response or solidarity from us other other Western countries largely due to racism/prejudice. Many are pointing out that a day before the attacks in Paris, 43 people were killed by suicide bombers in Beirut but did not receive the global outpouring of sympathy that France is experiencing right now. I think that it's a valid point, and one that I agree with.

But what really irritates me about this is that the very same people who are being so critical of the media and social media response is that virtually all of them gave no fucks about those other countries either. I have one friend in particular who is being very vocal about silence over the attacks in Beirut a few days ago. She's even gone so far as to unfriend people who are critical of those using the opportunity to highlight the problems of terrorism in countries other than France or other privileged countries. But she didn't give a shit about those attacks until people were showing their sympathy and support for France. This also seems to be the case for a lot of other friends I've seen making similar arguments. And I'm a bit conflicted about the whole thing. On the one hand, I agree with their argument overall. But on the other hand, I can't help but feel they only give a shit about the underprivileged when privileged people care about other privileged people getting fucked over. The entire thing seems disingenuous to me, and a way to garner attention to themselves about how much they care about social justice. But I don't know if I'm overreacting to this or not.

[Blade Azaezel]

I think the problem is that western media didn't really put a spotlight on these countries. So no one was really aware of what had happened. Once word started to spread about the attack in Beirut, people still didn't give a shit. There wasn't a sudden "OMG that's awful too" moment. We had a 1 minute silence at work today, specifically for Paris. No one else was mentioned and it's really annoying. Commiserate with everyone, or no one ...but these are my immediate thoughts on the subject. I reserve the right to change my mind!

[Gypsy-Vanner]

That's why I have kept my mouth shut about the whole Paris thing. I see the hypocrisy of the response to the Paris bombing but I have never really shared any articles on other bombings so saying anything about how I think that it's really crappy so many people are "praying" for Paris while ignoring all the other tragedies would be hypocritical of me too.

I only go off my Al Jazeera and Huffpost and I shamefully only focus on US stories. I "see" the other tragedies, those two media outlets report on them but I never do anything else to acknowledge them.

[Monk]

That's why I have kept my mouth shut about the whole Paris thing. I see the hypocrisy of the response to the Paris bombing but I have never really shared any articles on other bombings so saying anything about how I think that it's really crappy so many people are "praying" for Paris while ignoring all the other tragedies would be hypocritical of me too.

I only go off my Al Jazeera and Huffpost and I shamefully only focus on US stories. I "see" the other tragedies, those two media outlets report on them but I never do anything else to acknowledge them.

See, I think it's entirely fine to be "praying" for Paris or sending our sympathies. That's what we should be doing. Even if we haven't had the same reaction to other countries, it still is a tragic incident. I guess my issue is that many of these people are suddenly pretending they cared all along about the non-Western countries, but they didn't give a shit until after everyone showed sympathy for France.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

I'm not saying it isn't good to be thinking of Paris and all those killed/injured. We should. It is just that there are a lot of people out there that don't give a rats ass about any other countries being terrorized. I had a "conversation" with some idiot who said "not all snakes bite, but that doesn't mean I trust any of them" comment as an analogy to Muslims and that is the type of person who is the loudest. There are so many people out there like that and it's sad.

I see certain people on my friends list changing their profile picture and they are the same ones who would most likely support that Texas politician who sent a statement to the white house that he would not be allowing any Syrian refugees into his state anymore because terrorists and all. The US and other 1st world countries are VERY good about inciting patriotic anger within their populations and so many fall for it. Those people never look past the surface of whatever bullshit they are being fed.

As for your 2nd point, that is exactly why I have stayed out of most of it on Facebook because that would basically be me.

[Anakin McFly]

idk the whole thing just reminded me of this:



One thing that I often see left out of the outrage is that some of the people who are particularly upset about France have friends and family living there, some of whom might have been directly or indirectly affected. So to them it's not just another terrorist attack but one where people they love were/are at risk. Others were people who used to live in Paris, or who often went there on vacation and had made good memories at the places attacked. Whereas most Westerners don't have similar social ties to Beirut. Even someone who would normally care just as deeply about the other attacks wouldn't be able to do so if they'd just lost a close friend or loved one in Paris, and it sucks to see even those people feeling guilty about that.

The main people who need to examine their disparity in reactions are those for whom both countries are just as foreign, i.e. people like me. I know zero people in either Paris or Beirut, and I haven't been to either city, but I still instinctively care more about Paris. That's where critiques about valuing white/Western countries and lives more than non-Western ones are apt; not where people are grieving over the deaths of people they knew.

[Anakin McFly]

Thoughts on this? ->

"Tragedy hipsters" and the #alllivesmatter-ification of grief
https://storify.com/JamilesLartey/on-fff

"Obviously there are salient asymmetries in power and privilege which govern this response, but it nonetheless feels dismissive & insensitive ... Some commentators today honestly sound like tragedy hipsters, "Bro- I care about suffering and death that you've never even heard of" ... There is a difference between, on the one hand, Lebanese people (and people who genuinely engage with that part of the word outside the context of a mass-tragedy in the “West") standing up and asking “what about us?" & on the other, ppl in the West who post articles about Garissa & Baga in finger-pointing condemnation of other people's “prayers for Paris".

[Boomer]

Thoughts on this? ->

"Tragedy hipsters" and the #alllivesmatter-ification of grief
https://storify.com/JamilesLartey/on-fff

"Obviously there are salient asymmetries in power and privilege which govern this response, but it nonetheless feels dismissive & insensitive ... Some commentators today honestly sound like tragedy hipsters, "Bro- I care about suffering and death that you've never even heard of" ... There is a difference between, on the one hand, Lebanese people (and people who genuinely engage with that part of the word outside the context of a mass-tragedy in the “West") standing up and asking “what about us?" & on the other, ppl in the West who post articles about Garissa & Baga in finger-pointing condemnation of other people's “prayers for Paris".

Honestly, I couldn't agree more. I've thought of people being described there as "Rage Hipsters" in the past, but I like the sound of "Tragedy Hipsters" even better. Spot-on analysis, IMO.

[Anakin McFly]

This one from a journalist pointing out that the media does cover attacks in non-Western countries, sometimes extensively so, but these stories go largely ignored by the public:

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/16/9744640/p ... irut-media

[Derived Absurdity]

Well, if I wasn't already numb from shock and anger at America's reaction of the Syrian refugees due to this, this thread would have certainly did it for me. Of course I can't say I wasn't expecting something like it.

Yes, obviously, those attempting to contextualize and pointing out that the media's emphasis on the Paris attacks over Beirut was largely racist and imperialist are simply tragedy hipsters who are engaging in whataboutery. Because there's no other explanation, is there? That's not trivializing and dismissive at all. And I particularly liked it when it was compared to white supremacists and #AllLivesMatter people. Because equating anti-racist leftists trying to contextualize and historicize things to racist reactionaries is classy as fuck. There's no difference, right? Yeah, the motivations are basically the same, aren't they.

And oh, that vox piece was just fucking brilliant. Yeah, not imperial propaganda at all. I could spend all day refuting that bullshit but I'm too fucking sick with disgust right now so I'll just leave these here for now.

http://fair.org/home/its-true-media-did ... s-attacks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... oblem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[phe_de]

One thing that I often see left out of the outrage is that some of the people who are particularly upset about France have friends and family living there, some of whom might have been directly or indirectly affected. So to them it's not just another terrorist attack but one where people they love were/are at risk. Others were people who used to live in Paris, or who often went there on vacation and had made good memories at the places attacked. Whereas most Westerners don't have similar social ties to Beirut. Even someone who would normally care just as deeply about the other attacks wouldn't be able to do so if they'd just lost a close friend or loved one in Paris, and it sucks to see even those people feeling guilty about that.

This.
I have been to Paris quite often, and was in Paris one week before the attacks. It was "only" the airport, but still... I have never been to Lebanon and have no plans of going there. So I admit that I care more about Paris than about Beirut.

I also liked the vox article and the Jamiles Lartey tweets.

Today I went to work with a French flag attached to my bike. If some tragedy hipster had asked: "Did you also protest the killings in Beirut?", I guess a good answer would have been: "Did you?"

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

France is a country very similar to our own so it's much easier to empathise and relate to it and the people there. I grow very tired of all this bullshit about people claiming that they care about everyone on the planet equally. Yes - maybe in an absent, theoretical manner they do. But there are 7 billion people on this planet - you can't even get your head round that number, let alone care about each person as an individual.

And if they really did care, they sure as hell wouldn't be living their lives the way they are, because rather than bitching to others about caring more about the people in Paris than Beirut they'd actually be out doing something for the people in Beirut.

So yes - maybe because I've been to Paris several times. Maybe it's because a friend of mine lives in Paris. Maybe its because Paris is a western city not completely dissimilar to the western cities I've spent most of my life in. And Beirut is none of these things. Maybe that's why I care more about attacks in Paris than Beirut.

If that makes me a bad person in some people's eyes I can live with that. I suspect it just makes me a person.

[Anakin McFly]

@DA - fair enough about the Vox article. I don't read the news in general so I couldn't gauge how accurate it is. But I'm not sure how it's imperialist propaganda - the article's point was that people are prone to ignoring non-Western suffering even when the media doesn't, which I'm still inclined to believe is true, and proving that the media is just as culpable doesn't really change that; it then implies that people wouldn't be racist if the media wasn't, which I doubt. It felt like a good counter to all those people I've seen shifting the blame away from themselves: "I'm not racist, the media just didn't tell me anything." And I'm sure in some cases that's true, but not most.

Regarding the tweets, the writer acknowledged the difference in privilege and intention between people hijacking BlackLivesMatter with AllLivesMatter and this; he also made it clear that there was a difference between those who genuinely cared and those who were just jumping on a bandwagon when they previously wouldn't have bothered - people who had read about Beirut previously but where it didn't register until the outrage started, whereupon they started telling people off for doing what they had. It was a criticism of that hypocrisy and nothing else.

[Anakin McFly]

Lartey also adds: "Quick note: If you're now using this term "tragedy hipster" to point out how cool you are for not being one, you've really missed the point."

So I doubt (especially given his other tweets, which do a lot of racial critique) his target was those raising the issue of racism and how people value Western lives more, but rather those who were appropriating tragedies to show they were more enlightened than others: whereas if all those people had truly cared so much to begin with, the whole problem wouldn't even exist.

[Monk]

Anakin - First, I can't tell if that xkcd is directed at me, but I hope it isn't.

The main people who need to examine their disparity in reactions are those for whom both countries are just as foreign, i.e. people like me. I know zero people in either Paris or Beirut, and I haven't been to either city, but I still instinctively care more about Paris. That's where critiques about valuing white/Western countries and lives more than non-Western ones are apt; not where people are grieving over the deaths of people they knew.

I think this applies to most Americans, to be honest. While I'm sure that there are those who know people in France, I'd wager that they are a minority. Although I suppose more would have visited France, or had dreams/intentions of visiting Paris someday but none to visit Beirut, so this attack hits closer to home. And I think this is a stronger defense to the Western world's response. I have never been to Las Vegas, for example, but an attack there would illicit a stronger response from me than an attack another country, including France. I suppose Beirut would be one degree of separation even further.

I think the tragedy hipster thing is spot on, though.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

I think tragedy hipster is the most apt name I can apply to a specific type of people that I think the OP is talking about.

[Monk]

I think tragedy hipster is the most apt name I can apply to a specific type of people that I think the OP is talking about.

Pretty much, yeah.

[Anakin McFly]

Nah, the xkcd wasn't directed at you, just the people you were talking about (and in some way all of us, and humanity in general.)