J.K. Rowling just used 'lonely virgin' as an insult

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:09 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/s ... 1999650817

She later issued a clarification, but it doesn't address the issue: https://mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/s ... 4041906177

I'm bitterly upset that unlike most other celebrity faux pas(ses?), this is getting zero attention as a problematic thing on social justicey places including Tumblr, with three blogs actually praising it as a sick burn. But imagine for instance if she'd called them a slut. It would be competing against the Muslim immigration ban for prime news space.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:47 pm

I've used similar phrases as insults and undoubtedly will again. The more the extreme left keeps looking for a reason to be insulted the more we are going to see things like Brexit and the election of orange-tinted idiots with tiny hands. We're stuck with four years of Trump. I'd much prefer that doesn't turn into eight years of Trump followed by eight years of Pence then eight years of Bannon, so can we please limit our outrage to things worthy of outrage? When someone uses "lonely virgin" as an insult it should be immediately obvious they are referring to the target of that insult as someone who is a virgin, not by choice, but because no self-respecting person would ever have sex with that targeted person who will forever be lonely because he or she is undeserving of any form of friendship. It is not an insult, nor should it be taken as one, to a person who chooses to remain a virgin or is still a virgin simply because he or she has not met anyone whom he or she deems worthy of a sexual relationship. It's an insult to anti-social basement dwellers who use the internet to rail against progressive thought and social justice when they are too ignorant to even understand what the hell they are complaining about. Typing "lonely virgin" just takes a little less effort than "anti-social basement dweller railing against progressive thought and social justice when you're too ignorant to even understand what you're complaining about".

The choice is simple, dial back the extreme leftism or accept that those who refuse to dial it back will be responsible for the alt-right ruling the world for decades. Real problem - President Stale Cheeto appointing actual fascists to his cabinet and other high-ranking political offices, not a real problem - an author of children's fantasy novels using "lonely virgin" as an insult; real problem - That same President Stale Cheeto banning people of a religion from entering the country based on nothing but misplaced hysteria and bigotry, not a real problem - referring to people who are pregnant, as a group, by the words "pregnant women" instead of "pregnant persons" (Thanks British Medical Association); real problem - Shooting up a mosque, not a real problem - jokingly referring to redheads as gingers and saying they have no souls; real problem - discrimination against LGBT people including trying to deny them the right to marry; not a real problem - making harmless jokes about lesbians when you raised one and she still lives in your house; real problem - being stalked and harassed by deranged psychopaths, not a real problem - hurt feelings because someone doesn't use the homogenized and carefully selected language that someone else prefers to be used; real problem - an oil pipeline through sacred tribal lands that have been stolen from the tribe, not a real problem - being told your sacred religious beliefs are a pack of fairy tale nonsense; real problem - unprovoked violence, not a real problem - punching a racist and homophobic asshat in the face; real problem - rape and any other form of sexual assault, not a real problem - a man innocently saying hello to a woman (And yes, I can link to a video where a man was verbally assaulted and accused of sexual harassment and then accused of racism for no other reason than he said hello to a black woman.)

Too much of this stuff has gotten way too far out of hand and into the realm of "You have got to be fucking kidding me" even for many of us who wholeheartedly support almost all forms of "social justice" and vehemently oppose anything associated with the alt-right movement. Under the current social/political climate we're all just lucky the U.S. didn't end up with a President far worse than Trump (and "far worse than Trump" is already the Vice-President) or that the U.K. didn't only withdraw from the EU but also immediately start bombing the entire European continent just to make sure they got the message.

Rant over - for now.

Post by **aels** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:58 pm

I'm not interested in getting into a fight mostly because I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts but I will settle for saying that I disagree with you on many of your points, Cash. Now I'm going to go and eat a yoghurt, the most complex thing my brain can manage today.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:03 pm

There's no reason to fight. Disagreement is normal, unlike orange skin.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:41 pm

This was coming from members of the extreme left, so I found it hypocritical that they get disproportionately outraged about minor infractions like those you mention, only to be silent on this. But you're right in bringing some needed perspective, and it may be a sign that they've realized there are bigger crises at hand to focus on. I'm sorry for the overreaction. I realise it's perpetuating the problem and that it's a good thing if people have stopped focusing on this stuff.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:58 pm

Don't give in so easy and don't apologize if you were legitimately upset. You don't owe me an apology for anything. You are a member of a minority that has to endure the bigotry of asshats. My minority status (one-quarter Romani) is easily hidden. I've hidden it all my life, not out of fear of bigotry or any shame of my heritage but simply because I've rarely associated with my Romani relatives so I really can't identify with the bigotry they've had to endure and unfortunately because they are bigots themselves who consider me an outsider. I can empathize and even attempt to help deal with the bigotry my child has had to face as a woman, a Latino, a lesbian and the mother of a black child but I will never have to deal with that bigotry myself other than having fuckwits call me a race-traitor and a homo-lover or some other equally ridiculous and childish insult. I'm interested in people's opinions, especially the opinions of people who have to endure this bullshit. Well, I'm a little more interested in aels' opinion than anyone else's. If I'm wrong then someone should take the effort to show me where I'm wrong. But, from my perspective, policing language is always going to produce results counter to what is intended because there will always be a backlash and being oversensitive serves to empower people who need to be kept out of power. But, as I said, if I'm wrong then someone convince me I'm wrong.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:24 pm

Thanks. I was legitimately upset, though it also seems petty in light of all the bigger things going on. But JK Rowling has about 10 million followers, many of them young insecure teenagers who probably get enough of that from their peers without a famous person they look up to adding weight and legitimacy to that shame. It's symptomatic of a bigger problem where getting laid is used to prove one's worth, especially for guys. It's one of the things that made Elliot Rodger snap. His roommates constantly made fun of him for being a virgin, and it fuelled his resentment of women whom he blamed for not sleeping with him and thus making others consider him a failure of a man who then needed to prove himself with violence. I'd be less concerned if Rowling had a predominantly adult fanbase, but it's precisely because she writes for children that her words matter.

The subject is also a touchy issue for me, as a lonely virgin who keeps encountering similar mockery in liberal circles specifically. There's that vibe of "we're the cool good-looking feminist guys who have sex because women love us, unlike those losers over there who are too ugly/pathetic/unfeminist to get laid lol" and it dregs up bad memories from school where those were the sorts of people who badly bullied me for being weird and now get to present themselves as all progressive and stuff. But social justice is about fighting for the marginalised, the lonely and the unloved, not the popular kids. Marginalised people in general aren't the ones bragging about how much sex they have - imagine a black lesbian going "lol you're just mad no one wants to sleep with you", because chances are she's having difficulty with that herself because people are racist homophobes.

Regarding the other things - it's the death from a thousand paper cuts. A trivial racist comment may be trivial and not worth fighting over, but a thousand trivial racist comments are what end up shaping and legitimising a racist society. People using 'gay' as an insult reinforces the idea that being gay is bad, etc. So sometimes the only way to get any headway is to tackle those trivial things one at a time. Which is frustrating, but they're the things supporting the 'real problems'.

I agree about the backlash and is why I wish people were more discerning in picking their battles, but at the same time, I don't think it's possible to avoid those fights altogether. Over here I'm surrounded with countless tiny reminders that society considers me an inferior human. Each one in itself is far too minor to make a big deal about, but all of them together make for a psychologically stifling environment and the internalised belief that I'm an inferior human. (I honestly didn't even recognise this until I went off to NYC to work, and suddenly that feeling was gone.) It's like when someone claims that we live in a post-racial gender-equal society and demands to know how women or black people are still being oppressed, and people end up bringing up things like police brutality or the wage gap. But even if those problems are solved, society would still be oppressive to them because it's the small things that create that atmosphere - the way one stranger looked at you once, a throwaway joke from a friend, an assumption in a commercial, a government policy that assumes everyone is straight, a health website that doesn't account for your existence, someone unconsciously edging away from you on the train, a smiling sales person ceasing to smile when it's your turn, and so on. Few of those can be legalised or pointed to specifically, and on their own they are minor complaints, but often they're the things that hurt more than the real problems that at least everyone can recognise as real.

Well, I'm a little more interested in aels' opinion than anyone else's.

Me too.

Post by **aels** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:21 pm

Okay I'm still too tired to do the thing where you do the sensewords but if I don't type up where I was going with this, I'll just go to bed and never come back (to this post, I don't mean I'll die. Probably? I probably won't die). So here are my opinions, the only opinions that actually matter on this horrifying shitastrophe of a dying planet OKAY

1) I reject the suggestion that political correctness (or whatever, you know what I mean) contributes to the rise of the alt-right. Like, it *might*, I have no evidence to say otherwise, but my gut feeling is that the people on the extreme right (or even the less extreme right, like those Trump-voting FUCKS) need absolutely no encouragement or incentive to have shitty reactionary politics. Trump's election, IMO, is a backlash but it's not a backlash to political correctness so much as it is a backlash to the slow and steady erosion of existing dominant power structures. There are undoubtedly people who voted Trump just because they were so goshdarned mad that they had to do what a black man told them for eight years. I do not believe that if we police language less, we will somehow draw these people into the light, they will still be frightened and furious that black people and women and the gays get to own property or whatever.

I just get really mad at the notion that if we can appease the right by being a kinder, gentler left (see: all those people who were mad that Hillary called Trump supporters 'deplorables' and were like 'You're making these people vote Trump by being rude to them!' HAHA NO FUCKERS, THEY WERE GONNA VOTE TRUMP ANYWAY ON ACCOUNT OF BEING DEPLORABLE). I'm kinda getting off-topic here but I suppose my point is that I have encountered a fair few leftwing special snowflake libtard Tumblr tot cucks who get triggered because they think that the Gregorian calendar is cultural appropriation (etc etc) and they have never, not for one second, nudged me any farther to the right. Even that lady who wrote that thing about how Firefly is a PRODUCT OF THE PATRIARCHY and Joss Whedon PROBABLY BEATS HIS WIFE would never for one second induce me to support a man like Trump. Right-wingers make their choices to be absolute fucking dicks and I, a liberal crybaby who yells at people a lot, will not be held culpable in any way for the rise of the right.

2) I am always wary of maybe wandering into the territory of those people who are like 'Why are feminists upset about mansplaining when women in Saudi Arabia can't even drive?!' Like, we are generally mad about both of those things and the person telling us not to sweat the small stuff is generally a concern troll who doesn't give a shit about either of them. The reason People In Group X get upset about the comparatively smaller thing that probably seems like absolute tiny potatoes by Person Not In Group X is because a lot of tiny shit is actually microaggressive and horrible and it really hurts and you feel uncomfortable criticising it because people always pop up and tell you that it doesn't matter.

We can't say that use of the term 'lonely virgin' isn't hurtful because Anakin is hurt by it (I am not hurt by it, per se, but I am extremely uncomfortable about it. The notion that someone's worth should in any way be correlated with whether or not someone has interfered with their downbelows is just as gross whether it's slut-shaming or making fun of virgins. I get what JK *meant*, i.e. no women want to touch these guys, but I still think it was ill-chosen) so the only way we can go from there is to either acknowledge that JK's words may be problematique or tell Anakin not to be upset by it and I always get extremely uncomfortable telling people not to be upset by things or that problem Z isn't a real problem because it's a real problem to them, you know*? Most of my problems in life are the pettiest shit on the planet but they are still real and genuine things for me and I don't like to make that value judgment for someone else.

I remember a thread back on IMDb which was about a deaf couple who were upset by the particular language to which they were being referred (I think they were referred to as 'deaf and dumb' or something like that and they were upset) and pretty much everyone on the thread said that they were whining about nothing and I got super fighty because it made me so profoundly uncomfortable that a bunch of hearing people were telling a deaf couple what should and shouldn't matter to them.

I am so completely off-topic and none of this makes any sense. I'm not being self-deprecating, I just read everything I wrote and even I don't know what the fuck point I was making and I wrote it. tl;dr: sometimes things are unintentionally hurtful and it is worthwhile considering if we could have made the same impact without causing that harm, also punch a Nazi (in the spirit of anti-political correctness, don't call them alt-right, call them FUCKIN NAZIS)

cool good talk

*THIS WAS A LONG SENTENCE

Post by **aels** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:22 pm

If you are wondering if I am drunk, this is how I get when I am very very tired and you should be grateful I only used the word 'thing' seven times because normally it's more and also there are hand gestures

Blade Azaezel · Post by **Blade Azaezel** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:11 pm

the Left won the culture war and the Right don't like it, basically. But instead of being able to walk the streets telling darkies to go home and for women to make them a sammich, they now have to vote in secret for some rightwingnazifucktrumpet who can do dumb fucking stuff in their name - which then gives them an excuse to demonise the Left when Lefties come out and protest saying it's rightwingnazi and dumb fucking stuff.

I heard an old man in town the other day say, very loudly, "British people 'ave woke up, time to send the 'ole fuckin' lot of 'em home." Thank you, Brexit. You've normalised racism again. I consoled myself with the belief he'll die soon, alone and miserable

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:14 pm

Anakin McFly wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/s ... 1999650817

She later issued a clarification, but it doesn't address the issue: https://mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/s ... 4041906177

What issue? These tweets look like JK Rowling was responding to something. I don't have a Twitter account and don't know how to find an entire conversation.

Anakin McFly wrote:I'm bitterly upset that unlike most other celebrity faux pas(ses?), this is getting zero attention as a problematic thing on social justicey places including Tumblr

I see plenty of Tweets. That's not what I'd call zero attention.

And I'm not upset and still plan to see Harry Potter and the Cursed Child this summer.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:29 pm

I don't really even understand this idea that leftist SJW political correctness is responsible for someone becoming an alt-right white supremacist. Like, I don't even sympathize with or understand that at all. It doesn't matter how "crazy" or "extreme" the left gets, no matter what they do they'll never make me run into the arms of a bunch of Nazi frogs spouting crime stats on Twitter, or make me have any sympathy whatsoever for motherfucking TRUMP. You don't become sympathetic to the deplorables unless you were secretly a deplorable yourself. All throughout this hideous election I've been told that I as a lefty need to be super-sensitive and super-careful not to tread on anyone's toes or say or something that ANYONE could POSSIBLY TAKE ANY ISSUE WITH WHATSOEVER because OMG YOU'LL TURN PEOPLE TO TRUMP. Like white people are the fucking Hulk, unable to constrain their inner white supremacist at the slightest provocation. Fuck that. You can't say anything without the crippling fear of white fragility destroying the goddamn globe by voting in a neo-fascist Captain Planet villain but a black guy protesting black people getting murdered by SITTING DOWN QUIETLY DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, OMG, THAT'S TAKING IT TOO FAR. White people can't get called racist without going nuts but black people should just get shot over and over again and just take it.

And why does it never go the other way? If white supremacists on the Internet are a result of crazy SJWs driving otherwise reasonable people to be racist, why is it that "crazy oversensitive PC SJWs" are never simply a result of reasonable centrist people being driven to the left because of the crazy amount of bigotry they have to deal with all the time? Why is that never an option? So we should be sympathetic to the alt-right because "omg coastal liberal elites were MEAN to poor Trump supporters" but SJWs and BlackLivesMatter protesters are simply deranged crazy people with no possible sympathetic angle whatsoever? Fuck this gaslight-y framing. Every time I read a Youtube comments section I feel like I want to become a radical feminist black supremacist. Bigots are never told to tone it down for fear of driving people to the far left, it's only the other way around.

And we really need to stop giving a shit what the right thinks anyway. They will never be appeased, ever. If we actually are appeasing them, we're doing something wrong. If you're trying to stop bigotry, they will NEVER be happy with you, no matter how respectfully or politely you do it. Stop giving in to their concern-trolling. This is called "respectability politics" and it is the enemy. Stop. I don't know why it's so instinctual for people to center their self-perceptions on what their enemies think of them, but it's stupid and it needs to go away.

Also, about calling people lonely virgins. Why is the onus always on those who are sensitive to be less sensitive, and not on those who are causing it to be somewhat less insensitive? I ALWAYS hear "stop being so sensitive, the world is not going to conform to your sensibilities you precious snowflake", I never hear the opposite, "Be a bit more sensitive of other peoples' feelings and stop using words that you know will hurt them, you fuck." Why is it always one and not the other. Aels is right about everything. Where the hell do people get this idea that they get to decide what's offensive for other people. What the fuck. (I vaguely remember that deaf couple thing, and I think I was on the douchebag side back then. I don't know. I'm sorry. I was a piece of shit.)

And JK Rowling is a piece of shit. She just needs to fuck off already.

Also I want to see that video. Sounds hilarious.

- this is my incoherent rant aimed at nobody in particular, especially here, just triggered by the general subject matter because I have a lot built up inside me. I need to get a diary or something.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:50 pm

Honestly I never said that extreme leftism causes people who otherwise don't sympathize with the alt-right to suddenly start sympathizing with those fuck-knuckles. What it does is bring those who already have those sympathies to come out of the woodwork and do the one thing nobody wants them to do ever - vote. While it's only anecdotal, I've seen it where I live; racist shitweasels who haven't voted since 1988 decided it was time to vote again.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:55 pm

Oh, it wasn't aimed at you. Just in general.

Post by **OpiateOfTheMasses** » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:43 pm

CashRules wrote:I've used similar phrases as insults and undoubtedly will again. The more the extreme left keeps looking for a reason to be insulted the more we are going to see things like Brexit and the election of orange-tinted idiots with tiny hands. We're stuck with four years of Trump. I'd much prefer that doesn't turn into eight years of Trump followed by eight years of Pence then eight years of Bannon, so can we please limit our outrage to things worthy of outrage? When someone uses "lonely virgin" as an insult it should be immediately obvious they are referring to the target of that insult as someone who is a virgin, not by choice, but because no self-respecting person would ever have sex with that targeted person who will forever be lonely because he or she is undeserving of any form of friendship. It is not an insult, nor should it be taken as one, to a person who chooses to remain a virgin or is still a virgin simply because he or she has not met anyone whom he or she deems worthy of a sexual relationship. It's an insult to anti-social basement dwellers who use the internet to rail against progressive thought and social justice when they are too ignorant to even understand what the hell they are complaining about. Typing "lonely virgin" just takes a little less effort than "anti-social basement dweller railing against progressive thought and social justice when you're too ignorant to even understand what you're complaining about".

The choice is simple, dial back the extreme leftism or accept that those who refuse to dial it back will be responsible for the alt-right ruling the world for decades. Real problem - President Stale Cheeto appointing actual fascists to his cabinet and other high-ranking political offices, not a real problem - an author of children's fantasy novels using "lonely virgin" as an insult; real problem - That same President Stale Cheeto banning people of a religion from entering the country based on nothing but misplaced hysteria and bigotry, not a real problem - referring to people who are pregnant, as a group, by the words "pregnant women" instead of "pregnant persons" (Thanks British Medical Association); real problem - Shooting up a mosque, not a real problem - jokingly referring to redheads as gingers and saying they have no souls; real problem - discrimination against LGBT people including trying to deny them the right to marry; not a real problem - making harmless jokes about lesbians when you raised one and she still lives in your house; real problem - being stalked and harassed by deranged psychopaths, not a real problem - hurt feelings because someone doesn't use the homogenized and carefully selected language that someone else prefers to be used; real problem - an oil pipeline through sacred tribal lands that have been stolen from the tribe, not a real problem - being told your sacred religious beliefs are a pack of fairy tale nonsense; real problem - unprovoked violence, not a real problem - punching a racist and homophobic asshat in the face; real problem - rape and any other form of sexual assault, not a real problem - a man innocently saying hello to a woman (And yes, I can link to a video where a man was verbally assaulted and accused of sexual harassment and then accused of racism for no other reason than he said hello to a black woman.)

Too much of this stuff has gotten way too far out of hand and into the realm of "You have got to be fucking kidding me" even for many of us who wholeheartedly support almost all forms of "social justice" and vehemently oppose anything associated with the alt-right movement. Under the current social/political climate we're all just lucky the U.S. didn't end up with a President far worse than Trump (and "far worse than Trump" is already the Vice-President) or that the U.K. didn't only withdraw from the EU but also immediately start bombing the entire European continent just to make sure they got the message.

Rant over - for now.

^^^^
This. Big league. (Deliberate use of words on the last bit there)

I'm pretty laid back and I try to be considerate of other people's feelings and treat everyone the way they want to be treated and if see something happening that isn't right I will do something about it. But when people start making issues out of things that aren't really issues they're just handing ammunition to other side.

And until you've won the war (or at least are decidedly winning the war) you can't do that. Because (as Cash says) it motivates people who might otherwise be moderate enough not to vote or even to vote your way, to vote for the other guy cos they think it's gone too far or it's getting silly.

This is why so many people vote for Trump and for Brexit. This is why Front Nationale are doing so well in the French election. This is why the Dutch Liberal party (that's right - the Liberal party) are campaigning with posters telling immigrants "if you don't like it here, you should leave". Because the average voter on the street has grown weary of people campaigning for issues that they don't see as being "real" any more - regardless of how real they actually are. And the political debates across the free world are being dragged deeper and deeper into the lowest reaches of the gutter.

It makes me sad and angry at the same time.

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:30 am

I'm glad for Troy's sake that he's not around to see this.

That's not me taking a side against anyone; it's just that I know where he would stand and how much more personally it would affect him than some others.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:48 am

I think he'd already decided that I don't take his issues seriously even though those same issues have a direct effect on several of the most important people in my life, one of whom is sleeping less than three feet away from me at this very moment. I'm concerned about the reality of the world she and her cousins grow up in, not some utopian fantasy world that can never exist. I'm greatly concerned about racist fuckwits calling them the n-word, I'm far less concerned that they might say something and someone else disagrees with them. I would love for their lives to be perfect. Their lives are never going to be perfect and they, like everyone else, will need to realize that "pick your battles" is not just a slogan, it's a life lesson. That said, Aels and Anakin make some good points and I already admitted that I will never personally have to face such issues. The worst I have to face is someone calling me a cyclops. I've also learned to joke about myself as a defense mechanism if it's ever needed. That's why I've sometimes made a joke that I've only stole one child in my life but I have an excuse - I'm only 1/4 Gypsy. But I do realize that what works for me may not work for others. But as someone who has seen enough bullies in my life I learned a long time ago that if you let them know your feelings are hurt they don't suddenly develop compassion and stop their bullshit. They're fucking pack hunting predators who move in for the kill. If it's a bully in a face-to-face physical situation you stomp his ass. If it's an online bully and you know it's a male you ask if there are any men in his family because you'd like to talk to one of them instead of the family bitch. But I also learned a long time ago that you can never truly understand someone else's pain or their struggle no matter how sincere you are or how much you empathize. So if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but at least I'm not orange.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:47 am

I almost said that if Troy saw this thread he'd probably go completely apeshit.

Personally I was actually feeling fine until Opiate posted his comment. My comment was angry, but I wasn't actually feeling angry when I made it. Now I actually feel like strangling someone. I mean, come the f on, Opiate.

Post by **OpiateOfTheMasses** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:52 am

Shooting black people because they're black is a real issue and only the alt-right don't have a problem with that. But burying in a sea of complaints about name calling or other "SJW" type stuff is what I'm talking about - do you really think it's comparable to JKR calling someone a virgin? Win the arguments on the big points - people have proven time and time again that they have neither the interest or the attention span for a longer or more complicated debate. It just gives the other side more things to pick apart.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:59 am

Okay wait hold up, there's some misinterpretation of my admittedly vague OP. This wasn't a matter of "omg a celebrity said this problematic thing, how could they?? let's lynch them", because I'm very much against that sort of thing. Rather, it was "remember when Jeremy Renner jokingly called Black Widow a slut and the internet exploded with outrage and wrote hundreds of articles critcising him and yelling at him to apologise, and then when he didn't really apologise they got mad about that and wrote another few hundred articles? And now JK Rowling, who is much more famous than Jeremy Renner and has millions of impressionable kids (who are likely nerdy virgins - come on) hanging on to her every word just repeated the kind of cruel insult they probably hear from schoolyard bullies, and there's not a peep from those same blogs other than three articles going 'lol so witty, look at Rowling's hilarious troll rebuttals."

So my anger wasn't so much at Rowling (celebrities are people too) but at the hypocrisy of that. I very much wish people wouldn't make such a big fuss about celebrities being less than perfect and saying problematic things, and all that minor 'SJW' type stuff in general, but if they're going to do that anyway, they should at least be consistent. It was the silence on this that hurt - the very same people who would start frothing at the mouth if someone were to call me a racial or homophobic or transphobic slur think it's funny to make fun of virgins. I felt betrayed, and it puts their support of all those other issues into question: do they genuinely care about those injustices, or are they just into this because they think it's the hip and progressive thing to do and makes them feel good about themselves?

I see plenty of Tweets. That's not what I'd call zero attention.

Tweets yes, but no published articles as is usually the case when celebrities say things that are the least bit questionable.

I have encountered a fair few leftwing special snowflake libtard Tumblr tot cucks who get triggered because they think that the Gregorian calendar is cultural appropriation (etc etc) and they have never, not for one second, nudged me any farther to the right

If white supremacists on the Internet are a result of crazy SJWs driving otherwise reasonable people to be racist, why is it that "crazy oversensitive PC SJWs" are never simply a result of reasonable centrist people being driven to the left because of the crazy amount of bigotry they have to deal with all the time? Why is that never an option?

What it does is bring those who already have those sympathies to come out of the woodwork and do the one thing nobody wants them to do ever - vote. ... But as someone who has seen enough bullies in my life I learned a long time ago that if you let them know your feelings are hurt they don't suddenly develop compassion and stop their bullshit.

^ good points.

Another thing I forgot to add - sometimes, the issue chosen as the source of outrage is only symbolic. Minority groups are often suffering thousands of tiny hurts, and eventually one of those is randomly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. So they snap over what seems like a stupidly trivial matter (even a made up one!) and blow it up into a huge ragefest unloading all the pain and angst that's been building up for ages, and of course it seems like an overreaction because it is an overreaction to that particular trivial thing. But it's a completely proportional reaction to the cumulative effect of all those trivial things, and they jump on that one thing as something concrete to hold on to and rally around and yell about, because most of the time the things that really hurt are the ones that you can't properly pinpoint - you can't make a case out of a whole town of people looking at you in disgust because they know you're gay, but you can criticise that one person for saying something very mildly homophobic that likely bothered you less than the atmosphere of disgust.

Post by **aels** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:04 am

Derived Absurdity wrote: Why is the onus always on those who are sensitive to be less sensitive, and not on those who are causing it to be somewhat less insensitive? I ALWAYS hear "stop being so sensitive, the world is not going to conform to your sensibilities you precious snowflake", I never hear the opposite, "Be a bit more sensitive of other peoples' feelings and stop using words that you know will hurt them, you fuck." Why is it always one and not the other.

I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THIS, THANK YOU, MY BLESSED CHILD BC YOU ARE CORRECT

Aels is right about everything.

Also, RESPECTABILITY POLITICS! That was the term I was looking for! I knew concern-trolling wasn't exactly what I wanted. Thank you.

Post by **aels** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:11 am

OpiateOfTheMasses wrote:But when people start making issues out of things that aren't really issues they're just handing ammunition to other side.

And until you've won the war (or at least are decidedly winning the war) you can't do that. Because (as Cash says) it motivates people who might otherwise be moderate enough not to vote or even to vote your way, to vote for the other guy cos they think it's gone too far or it's getting silly.

This is why so many people vote for Trump and for Brexit. This is why Front Nationale are doing so well in the French election. This is why the Dutch Liberal party (that's right - the Liberal party) are campaigning with posters telling immigrants "if you don't like it here, you should leave". Because the average voter on the street has grown weary of people campaigning for issues that they don't see as being "real" any more - regardless of how real they actually are.

If you vote for Trump or Brexit or Front Nationale (or UKIP or etc etc) then that is because that is who you are. I'm done making excuses for bigots and acting like their hands were somehow forced by leftwing rhetoric or 'economic insecurity'. If you voted for Trump, knowing who he is (and he has never hidden who he is), then you are either in favour of religious discrimination, misogyny, white supremacy, corruption, etc etc or you don't consider religious discrimination, misogyny, white supremacy, corruption, etc to be that big a deal (in which case, hello, you are part of the problem!) You aren't a decent person driven to fascism, you're a fascist taking your mask off. If it takes so very little to push someone into voting for Trump then I am STRONGLY SUSPICIOUS that they were looking for the first possible excuse to say fuck them Muslims.

Post by **aels** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:12 am

Gendo wrote:I'm glad for Troy's sake that he's not around to see this.

That's not me taking a side against anyone; it's just that I know where he would stand and how much more personally it would affect him than some others.

I miss Troy.

Post by **aels** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:17 am

Also, just to clog up this thread further, I'm sorry Anakin because I think I dragged us off-topic (ME?) but I have a lot of SJW feelings right now because it has been a pretty shitty year to be a crybaby liberal. Basically what you said here:

Another thing I forgot to add - sometimes, the issue chosen as the source of outrage is only symbolic. Minority groups are often suffering thousands of tiny hurts, and eventually one of those is randomly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. So they snap over what seems like a stupidly trivial matter (even a made up one!) and blow it up into a huge ragefest unloading all the pain and angst that's been building up for ages, and of course it seems like an overreaction because it is an overreaction to that particular trivial thing. But it's a completely proportional reaction to the cumulative effect of all those trivial things, and they jump on that one thing as something concrete to hold on to and rally around and yell about, because most of the time the things that really hurt are the ones that you can't properly pinpoint - you can't make a case out of a whole town of people looking at you in disgust because they know you're gay, but you can criticise that one person for saying something very mildly homophobic that likely bothered you less than the atmosphere of disgust.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:46 pm

I remember the deaf thread, and it wasn't on IMDb. I think it was on Randall's board (maybe Chucklez but pretty sure it was Randall's) and I was the first person to say, "wait a minute, how hard is it really for me to not call someone deaf if they'd rather be called hearing impaired or something else?" Then DA agreed with me, and then Aels came in with a vengeance and shut that shit down. This thread reminded me of that discussion as well. As before, I'm with DA and Aels on this one, but I don't have the time right now or the will power later to type a bunch of paragraphs.

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:57 pm

Anakin McFly wrote:So my anger wasn't so much at Rowling (celebrities are people too) but at the hypocrisy of that. I very much wish people wouldn't make such a big fuss about celebrities being less than perfect and saying problematic things, and all that minor 'SJW' type stuff in general, but if they're going to do that anyway, they should at least be consistent. It was the silence on this that hurt - the very same people who would start frothing at the mouth if someone were to call me a racial or homophobic or transphobic slur think it's funny to make fun of virgins. I felt betrayed, and it puts their support of all those other issues into question: do they genuinely care about those injustices, or are they just into this because they think it's the hip and progressive thing to do and makes them feel good about themselves?

Or maybe because the target of the insult deserved it?
Apparently JK Rowling's tweet was directed at someone going by "us Pepe"; and I just looked "Pepe the frog" up; it is apparently used by the alt-right as a meme. So it's possible that "us Pepe" was spouting racist, sexist or otherwise offensive stuff, and in that case, they had it coming.

And JK Rowling's clarification seems to confirm it. "Unless they're sublimating their frustration in alt-right politics, I wish every one of them fulfilment and happiness".

So, are you really expecting people who are not at the alt-right spectrum, to jump to the defense of a racist keyboard warrior?
I wouldn't. And I'm a virgin myself.

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:49 pm

phe_de wrote:
Anakin McFly wrote:So my anger wasn't so much at Rowling (celebrities are people too) but at the hypocrisy of that. I very much wish people wouldn't make such a big fuss about celebrities being less than perfect and saying problematic things, and all that minor 'SJW' type stuff in general, but if they're going to do that anyway, they should at least be consistent. It was the silence on this that hurt - the very same people who would start frothing at the mouth if someone were to call me a racial or homophobic or transphobic slur think it's funny to make fun of virgins. I felt betrayed, and it puts their support of all those other issues into question: do they genuinely care about those injustices, or are they just into this because they think it's the hip and progressive thing to do and makes them feel good about themselves?
Or maybe because the target of the insult deserved it?
Apparently JK Rowling's tweet was directed at someone going by "us Pepe"; and I just looked "Pepe the frog" up; it is apparently used by the alt-right as a meme. So it's possible that "us Pepe" was spouting racist, sexist or otherwise offensive stuff, and in that case, they had it coming.

And JK Rowling's clarification seems to confirm it. "Unless they're sublimating their frustration in alt-right politics, I wish every one of them fulfilment and happiness".

So, are you really expecting people who are not at the alt-right spectrum, to jump to the defense of a racist keyboard warrior?
I wouldn't. And I'm a virgin myself.

I'm not sure that's it. I think if the insult used had been "you stupid slut", then you'd have had more feminists caring about it, despite whom it was aimed at. Similar if the person had been called "retard".

Though in general I don't think we can judge a whole lot based on the amount of reaction/attention given to something. The internet is a very random and unpredictable place; which events like this are going to become big things on the internet is as unpredictable as which meme is going to catch on or which YoutTube video is going to go viral. Basically, there's a lot of random chance and other factors involved.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:00 pm

aels wrote:I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THIS, THANK YOU, MY BLESSED CHILD BC YOU ARE CORRECT

I am ALWAYS correct; sometimes I'm just somewhat more correct than usual.

And according to Bruce, I'm correct even when I look back and misremember that I'm not correct. Thank you, Bruce.

Post by **OpiateOfTheMasses** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:40 pm

aels wrote:
OpiateOfTheMasses wrote:But when people start making issues out of things that aren't really issues they're just handing ammunition to other side.

And until you've won the war (or at least are decidedly winning the war) you can't do that. Because (as Cash says) it motivates people who might otherwise be moderate enough not to vote or even to vote your way, to vote for the other guy cos they think it's gone too far or it's getting silly.

This is why so many people vote for Trump and for Brexit. This is why Front Nationale are doing so well in the French election. This is why the Dutch Liberal party (that's right - the Liberal party) are campaigning with posters telling immigrants "if you don't like it here, you should leave". Because the average voter on the street has grown weary of people campaigning for issues that they don't see as being "real" any more - regardless of how real they actually are.
If you vote for Trump or Brexit or Front Nationale (or UKIP or etc etc) then that is because that is who you are. I'm done making excuses for bigots and acting like their hands were somehow forced by leftwing rhetoric or 'economic insecurity'. If you voted for Trump, knowing who he is (and he has never hidden who he is), then you are either in favour of religious discrimination, misogyny, white supremacy, corruption, etc etc or you don't consider religious discrimination, misogyny, white supremacy, corruption, etc to be that big a deal (in which case, hello, you are part of the problem!) You aren't a decent person driven to fascism, you're a fascist taking your mask off. If it takes so very little to push someone into voting for Trump then I am STRONGLY SUSPICIOUS that they were looking for the first possible excuse to say fuck them Muslims.

It certainly will be "who you are" in many cases, but in a large number of cases you're probably giving the voters too much credit that they make any effort to watch the coverage, read any material about the election or do any research. I've worked in environments with large bodies of people who make a point of avoiding the news and when it comes to elections they base their decisions on "what their friends tell them", a slogan they've heard "somewhere" or a few lines they've read on facebook. And that's it. And Hillary didn't always come across as being very likable and Trump's "Make America Great Again" at least was easy to understand.

But taking it one level higher than that... take some of the issues (and assume the voter hadn't bothered to make any effort to look into them - only took the headlines at face value):

Corruption: Hillary looks a lot worse than Trump does. Those emails she won't disclose remember!
Black lives: Every time there's a shooting both sides say it's terrible. But Trump also supports the police. So he wants Law & Order too!
Mysogyny: Yeah - Trump's a mysognyist. But then so Hillary's husband. And she's stayed with him all those years so she's obviously not that concerned about women's rights.

So... left with a choice between the two, and not being willing to put the effort into actually researching the policies properly (and to be fair Trump really tried to not talk about the policies) it does kinda come down to which one do you dislike the least. And Hillary was the wrong candidate for the non-thinking voter. If they'd put pretty much anyone else up against Trump they'd have tanked him.

There's a quote I've always liked which (almost) applies to this:

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people" - HL Mencken (I think)

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:02 pm

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill. I would amend that to about thirty seconds.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:14 am

Hillary was the wrong candidate

That's as far as that even needs to go. This doesn't mean Trump was the right candidate, he's an imbecile surrounding himself with fascists, but Hillary Clinton is no better than Trump. I will never understand the desire of "the left" to latch on to someone like her when she changes her opinions on issues to fit whatever she thinks will get her elected. Obama himself pointed this out almost a decade ago and he was right. Trump's detractors also don't want to acknowledge the things he's done correctly. In fact, the only left-wing source I've been able to find that gives him credit for the things he's done correctly in his short time in office, while still admitting they can't stand him, is The Young Turks. For those unaware, to date, and since taking office, Trump has taken the following actions that anyone who is honest and knowledgeable should be willing to admit were the correct actions:

1) Put an end to TPP.
2) Continued to enforce Obama's Executive order forbidding discrimination against gay federal employees.
3) Told the drug companies in no uncertain terms that drug prices will be reduced. Meanwhile several "heroes" of both the right and left voted not to allow the importation of lower cost drugs from Canada, something Trump had zero control over.
4) Made a Supreme Court appointment who is about the best anyone could hope for from a Republican President, a man who was conformed by the Senate for his current position almost unanimously without even a call for a recorded vote but which the Democrats will now probably stall because they can and since the President is nominally a Republican it's their job to obstruct just as much as possible to retaliate for eight years of Republican obstruction. He's appointed questionable people to cabinet positions (people he can fire if they go too far) but the one appointment he has made so far that he won't be able to fire is nowhere near being a Nazi. Not all of his judicial decisions are popular with everyone but they have been in accordance with the law and don't stretch the Constitution into areas where it simply doesn't go.

Hillary would have almost definitely done the same with respect to #2 while almost definitely doing exactly the opposite with respect to #1 and #3 and there is no doubt that any Supreme Court nominee she made would have jumped at the chance to overrule at least two previous SCOTUS decisions concerning the right to keep and bear arms while continuing to lie about her intent concerning that part of the Constitution which she and many of her supporters find to be an inconvenience. Also, considering the people she surrounded herself with during the campaign I have no idea how anyone can say her cabinet appointments would have been any better than Trump's. Different =/= better and it's quite possible she would have appointed both Bernie Sanders and Angus King to cabinet posts, not because she would actually want them in her executive branch, but to get them out of the U.S. Senate where they would have opposed her on several key issues including TPP, other trade deals, the right to bear arms, and her desire to allow gun manufacturers to be sued for MANUFACTURING THEIR PRODUCTS CORRECTLY. This was one of her big goals, I'm not making this up, this isn't hyperbole, she wants corporations to face civil suits for doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Their are many problems in this country with respect to corporations and the law, making their products correctly is not one of them. The way she made sure to interrupt and talk over Sanders during the debates every time he tried to be honest about this issue - this should have been a clear signal to every potential Democratic voter that someone on that stage wasn't being honest.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:32 am

Damn... if Troy wouldn't have lost his shit before, he certainly would have now...

About two weeks ago, he called me a brogressive and basically broke up with me just for saying that our corporate overlords would prefer Trump to be more antagonistic towards Russia, and that Hillary was an "anti-Russian warhawk". That's all I said, and we haven't spoken since. I can't imagine what he would have done here.

About 3) specifically, he posted an incomprehensibly moronic article on IMDB attacking anyone on the left who had a problem with centrist Democrats blocking the lowering of drug prices, calling them "nihilistic purists" who only care about the moral high ground or whatever, and other centrist knee-jerk bullshit, all of which was too stupid for words, but he seemed to think it was a good article. I almost made a ten-paragraph rant debunking all its bullshit, but I chose not to post it because nothing good would have come from it. I don't even know what his thought process is anymore. He's turned into the worthless left-punching centrist I've been hating for the past six years.

I strongly disagree that Hillary Clinton is "no better" than Trump, and this is coming from me, someone who strongly detests her and considers her representative of everything wrong with the ruling class, so much so that I voted for her for the sole purpose of stopping Trump. He would probably call you a brogressive or a nihilistic purist or whatever for saying that. But whatever.

As for 1), you pointed out on IMDB that it was purely a symbolic gesture and that the TPP was dead anyway. Why are you giving him credit for that now?

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:47 am

Under Hillary it might not have been dead. Also, considering just how much of a stooge people like John McCain are and how much influence those people hold, it's quite possible I was wrong when I made that IMDB post. As to your other point, any attempt to defend the likes of Cory Booker after that bullshit corporate ass-kissing move he pulled - that's someone who needs to stop worrying about other people's privilege and start worrying about his own hypocrisy. If a Republican does X and it's wrong then it's equally wrong for a Democrat to do X. For example, I haven't studied much about Rex Tillerson but he just got confirmed by all the Senate Republicans plus three Democrats and Angus King. If approving Rex Tillerson for Secretary of State was wrong then it wasn't just wrong for the Republicans, three Democrats and an independent were equally wrong. The same applies to Cory the ass-kisser. What he did was a slap in the face to every American who has difficulty paying for their prescription medicine. He did it because he's paid to do it just like the Republicans who voted the same way.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:37 am

I'm not sure that's it. I think if the insult used had been "you stupid slut", then you'd have had more feminists caring about it, despite whom it was aimed at. Similar if the person had been called "retard".

This. I see that argument quite often, but the thing about those insults is that they target more than the intended victim. If a black guy is mean to you, it doesn't give you the right to call him the n-word because you'd be hurting not just him but any innocent black person who happens to be listening, plus you'd have to be pretty racist to use that word in the first place.

@aels - there is nothing to be sorry about because your words are golden and you are right about everything.

I just saw a Facebook thread in which some guy was making fun of an MRA by calling him misogynist slurs and other emasculating things (tiny penis, virgin, 'do you wish you were a woman?' etc), which kind of sums up my frustration around the counter-productive phenomena of men utilising misogyny as a weapon in the name of feminism. Those are all highly gendered insults suggesting that being feminine or female is an inherently bad thing, and you rarely see the opposite. "you fight like a girl" = insult; "you fight like a boy" = praise, because patriarchy. The main exception has to do with telling a woman she looks like a man, which however centers a woman's worth on her appearance.

Post by **aels** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:31 pm

Anakin McFly wrote:If a black guy is mean to you, it doesn't give you the right to call him the n-word

Umm, renowned professor of ethics Marv would strongly disagree with you.

I just saw a Facebook thread in which some guy was making fun of an MRA by calling him misogynist slurs and other emasculating things (tiny penis, virgin, 'do you wish you were a woman?' etc), which kind of sums up my frustration around the counter-productive phenomena of men utilising misogyny as a weapon in the name of feminism. Those are all highly gendered insults suggesting that being feminine or female is an inherently bad thing, and you rarely see the opposite. "you fight like a girl" = insult; "you fight like a boy" = praise, because patriarchy. The main exception has to do with telling a woman she looks like a man, which however centers a woman's worth on her appearance.

I have nothing to add but sage nodding.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:41 am

Trump is really standing up to the power of the drug companies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 489c03f503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:41 pm

https://twitter.com/SenBookerOffice/sta ... 6835684352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ fuck this snake and anyone who defends him

Post by **Gendo** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:54 pm

Derived Absurdity wrote:https://twitter.com/SenBookerOffice/sta ... 6835684352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ fuck this snake and anyone who defends him

So confused.... did he say something somewhere other than that link? Because in both the tweet and the video I can't see anything to possibly get upset about...

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:06 pm

Because he's pretending to be against DeVos's school privatization schemes when he's literally one of the strongest proponents of school privatization in the country and has been attacking teachers' unions for years. His and Devos's education policies are virtually the exact same. He's just as much an enemy of public education and the common good as she is.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:03 am

Derived Absurdity wrote:Because he's pretending to be against DeVos's school privatization schemes when he's literally one of the strongest proponents of school privatization in the country and has been attacking teachers' unions for years. His and Devos's education policies are virtually the exact same. He's just as much an enemy of public education and the common good as she is.

^Brogressive

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:08 pm

Got too much to say here, but very little time and patience. I'll just say, for now, that I'm amused by how I'm so radical that I'd flip my shit over Cash's respectability politics/concern-trolling rant, but also a "worthless centrist." Since his rant is the kind of thinking I'd normally associate with "centrists".

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:35 am

Trump's war on Big Pharma continues!! This time: helping pharma CEOs block their own shareholders from voting to lower drug prices!! Wheee!

http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capita ... ators-help" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's almost like he's NOT HONEST or something!

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:58 am

Also he's really demonstrating how much of an Establishment-busting peacenik he is compared to warmonger Hillary. Man, really upending the status quo here!

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/09/tru ... -military/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Key quote:

The weeklong blitz in Yemen eclipsed the annual bombing total for any year during Obama's presidency.

To be fair, it's easy to see how he could have duped so many people into thinking he would be a dove, what with his promise to bomb the shit out of ISIS and implement the "greatest military build-up in history" and all.