LOTR trilogy...and Black Panther

[Cassius Clay]

So, I decided to sit down and watch this trilogy that I haven't seen since my late teens. Took me almost two weeks to get through it, and at the end, found myself loving/appreciating it a lot more than I did when I was much younger. When "the fellowship" was initially released, I had absolutely no interest in watch a 4-hour long epic fantasy at a movie theater...but my younger cousins were really into it, so I went along with it since they were all so hype for it. Even though there were some really stunning scenes that seized my attention, like Liv Tyler chased by the Wraiths, the forming of the fellowship at Rivendell?...Rivendale?...I dunno, the whole sequence in the mines of moria("fly you fools"), I was never really that impressed by the film...I didn't get the hype(and pretty much felt similar about the sequels). One thing I have always loved about the trilogy was the score. The score probably took the films from about a 6/10 to a 7 for me. I would often use the score as background study music.

But now I appreciate it for the amazing trilogy it is: the scenery/locations, the cgi, I like the score even more now, the frickin' amazing orc actors, Gandalf being a bad ass motherfucker(even though everyone loves Legolas)...that old man had to orchestrate damn near everything, Samwise being the "real" hero of the journey in a sense, and the basic themes that are the heart of this epic story(that my cynical young adult mind probably couldn't appreciate) about friendship, teamwork, hope, duty, courage, honor, destiny/responsibility...the irony of the powerful in the story being unable to carry the ring, leaving the fate of the world in two powerless hobbits, and the powerful being responsible with their power and choosing to resist the ring.

I'm kinda in love with this trilogy right now...which brings me to the second part of this post....I love it but GODDAMN it's racist! Not explicitly...but it's got some major racist/classist undertones that ain't coincidences. I vaguely remember some seeing some criticisms of said racist undertones a few years back which I agreed with, but holy shit is it more apparent to me now. ALL THE BAD GUYS IN THIS TRILOGY ARE NON-WHITE or not of "the west"(Rohan/Gondor). And all the disgusting amoral orcs speak with some kind of Cockney or working-class British accent. I knew(or heard) that most of the non-white actors played orcs and urkai(however the hell you spell that). That was something I could kind of let go because I accept that this fictional universe is based on European history. But then why have non-white actors also playing bad MEN?...not just orcs? That's crazy that most people just kind of ignore these things. It's such a shame that an epic story like this is sullied by this kind of fuckery.

That said, I saw Black Panther last weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it. I had kinda been avoiding seeing it, and I'm not sure why. I think I couldn't escape the feeling of being pandered to, and I was afraid it wouldn't live up to the hype. I guess the racism in LOTRs made me much more appreciative of a fantasy world set in Africa. It was the perfect movie to watch after all that.

[Faustus5]

Tolkien was definitely a conservative who wanted the aristocracy back and all his work on that world was extremely Eurocentric by design. I'd love to get a time machine so I could make him see Black Panther and witness his brain exploding.

[Gendo]

ALL THE BAD GUYS IN THIS TRILOGY ARE NON-WHITE.

[Cassius Clay]

Allow me to rephrase:

ALL THE NON-WHITE ACTORS ARE PLAYING BAD GUYS

[Gendo]

[Raxivace]

Yeah, while I can appreciate the formal qualities of the LotR trilogy the racist subtext is pretty disappointing and gross for a set of films released in the 21st century. I don't think its a coincidence that conservative American politicians invoked the trilogy a lot around the time the War on Terror was starting either.

Even just anecdotally, I remember a lot of people confusing the phrases "Two Towers" and "Twin Towers" back then too. Thinking back, its pretty surreal.

[Gendo]

Allow me to rephrase:

ALL THE NON-WHITE ACTORS ARE PLAYING BAD GUYS

Ah ok.

[Raxivace]

ALL THE BAD GUYS IN THIS TRILOGY ARE NON-WHITE.

Its still a series where the non-European races are somehow lesser and inferior.

Having white villains doesn't mean it isn't racist. The Birth of a Nation had white villains too, and uh its still The Birth of a Nation.

[Cassius Clay]

THAT'S THE WHITEST GUY I'VE EVER SEEN!

[Cassius Clay]

Tolkien was definitely a conservative who wanted the aristocracy back and all his work on that world was extremely Eurocentric by design. I'd love to get a time machine so I could make him see Black Panther and witness his brain exploding.

True, but then the filmmakers(as Rax points out) built-on and reaffirmed that racism/classism. I mean...what's up with the Orcs' accents?

[Cassius Clay]

Yeah, while I can appreciate the formal qualities of the LotR trilogy the racist subtext is pretty disappointing and gross for a set of films released in the 21st century. I don't think its a coincidence that conservative American politicians invoked the trilogy a lot around the time the War on Terror was starting either.

Even just anecdotally, I remember a lot of people confusing the phrases "Two Towers" and "Twin Towers" back then too. Thinking back, its pretty surreal.

I've recently seen racists take the story as a parable. That "Men of the West" must come together and stop the invading non-whites.

[Derived Absurdity]

I was just going to say I always wondered why white supremacists haven't taken up LOTR as part of their mantle yet, considering its (often overt) racism and love for traditionalism and its theme of "the West" having to defend itself against the mongrel hordes of the dark and dangerous East. According to you it seems they have, but it's weird it only happened recently. Tolkien was most definitely a reactionary in many ways, and the movies unfortunately didn't tamp down on that very much.

I'm kind of the opposite of you. They were my favorite movies when I was younger, but now that I'm older I can appreciate some aspects to them that are not particularly great, even besides the racism. Also it's Rivendell, idiot.

[Eva Yojimbo]

LOTR are among my favorite films for precisely the reasons you lay out in your OP, and for the fact that it's just such an impressively immersive world. It's strangely the first film (series) that reminds me a lot of video games in how well it creates the sense that you're an actual part of its fantasy world throughout its runtime. I credit much of that to Jackson's eschewing of many modern filmmaking techniques that tend to make the setting less immersive and puts more focus on the drama/action.

As for the racist stuff, yeah, this has kinda been a (relatively hushed) criticism of Tolkien (and Jackson) since the beginning. About the only defense to be mustered is the idea that I simply don't think the vast majority of people make these allegorical connections; they just see fantasy heroes fighting fantasy villains and I'm skeptical that it goes any deeper than that even on an unconscious level. Might be interesting to devise some kind of experiment around this, actually (maybe seeing if exposure to such stuff has any even temporary effect on people's unconscious perception of minorities).

[Cassius Clay]

Also it's Rivendell, idiot.

Excuse you?

[Cassius Clay]

LOTR are among my favorite films for precisely the reasons you lay out in your OP, and for the fact that it's just such an impressively immersive world. It's strangely the first film (series) that reminds me a lot of video games in how well it creates the sense that you're an actual part of its fantasy world throughout its runtime. I credit much of that to Jackson's eschewing of many modern filmmaking techniques that tend to make the setting less immersive and puts more focus on the drama/action.

Yeah, I don't know enough about various filmmaking techniques(or lack the language to adequately analyze), but in the following sequence where Bad-ass-Gandalf is being a bad ass, there's something about the shot at the 0:47 mark where the camera trails Gandalf on the horse, and then you get a quick glimpse of the city, that makes you feel like you're right there. We know Faramir and his boys are desperately trying to make it to Minas Tirith, we know Gandalf is riding out from the city to help them. Then we see a wide shot, followed by that trailing shot, as Gandalf turns to meet them, that suddenly makes you feel like you're in it. And the score doesn't hurt.

[Cassius Clay]

Majestic wizard riding his majestic horse on majestic landscapes to a majestic score....Jesus Christ.

[Cassius Clay]

What was the deal with Denethor btw? He had one of the funniest(unintentionally so) on-screen deaths I've ever seen. He was such a self-pitying, defeatist/demoralizing presence. The whole sequence, from "ABANDON YOUR POSTS! FLEEEEE! Fleeee for your lives!" to him dousing himself in gasoline and quietly running a pretty good distance - while on fire - as he falls to his insignificant death, had me howling in laughter. When I first saw it I had assumed he was under some kind of spell, and that it was meant to mirror Theoden's own possession by Saruman. After my recent viewing, I saw nothing that really suggests he was under a spell. Though I see that Theoden and Denethor really mirror each other....Denethor was just a worse version. Even after Theoden is released from his spell, by Gandalf's and the fellowship's badassery, he still occasionally acts like a defeatist little bitch...stubbornly refusing to ask Gondor for help.

[BruceSmith78]

I never picked up on any racism in LOTR, but I watched it when I was in my early twenties and far more ignorant to my own privilege. I can't remember any non-whites in the trilogy, villains or otherwise (which is racist in and of itself), and I didn't pick up on the accents thing because I can't even tell the difference between an English accent and an Australian accent half the time, much less pick up on what is or isn't a Cockney accent.

Oh, and I don't remember the whole West vs East thing. I just remembered it as good vs evil.

[Cassius Clay]

So I searched for Aragorn's "Men of the West" speech that he gives at the end of ROTK. The speech is meant to motivate and unite the two separate nations(Rohan and Gondor) in "the west", who have been fighting their battles in isolation as opposed to fighting together. There are two videos I see on youtube that have this 1 minute speech he gives. One of the videos has over a million views, so I click on that one, fully expecting to see a bunch of racist and nationalist shit in the comments. But, oh look, the comments are disabled...I wonder why . So, I checked out the second video, which only has about 20,000 views. Take a little gander at the comment section:



And about the accents, I'm not really good at doing accents or describing how they differ, but when I hear them the distinctions are really clear to me. I've always thought of Australian accents as a mix of British with a bit of American southern drawl.

[Raxivace]

Holy shit, those comments. Entire books could be written about the implications of someone using an idiotic term like "rapefugee".

[Derived Absurdity]

rapefujihadists

[Cassius Clay]

One of my favorite scenes. A single horn subtly plays the Gondor theme for the first time, and Ned Stark again fails to recognize his true king. Legolas has been ride-or-die for Aragorn from the beginning.



I did find myself more sympathetic to Boromir this time around.

[Gendo]

So did you watch theatrical or extended? The extended gives a lot more reason to be sympathetic to Boromir and Faramir.

[Cassius Clay]

Theatrical for 'fellowship' and extended for the sequels. I actually didn't realize I was watching the extended versions and when I saw those scenes with Boromir and Faramir(showing some of their background) I wasn't sure if I had viewed them before, because these movies are long as shit and I hadn't sat down to watch them in years. But ur right that the extended scenes put Boromir in a much better light. However, before I saw the extended scenes I was already feeling a bit more sympathetic to Boromir anyway. I could more of his nuance and internal conflict. He deserves to be remembered as a legit member of the fellowship. Kinda sad he wasn't at the reunion in the end.

[Cassius Clay]

*deleted*

[Cassius Clay]

So there's this sequence in 'fellowship' where they begin their journey from Riverdale . There are all these wide, helicopter shots of them walking past huge landmarks and hill/mountains. During, there's some kind of horn instrument slowly playing 'In Dreams' while there are a bunch of violins playing high/sharp notes very rapidly(like in horror movies) in anticipation of something. Then at the last shot the camera zooms in as the horn/violins intensify. I couldn't figure out why those shots feel so familiar to me, but now I know...it's fucking 'Sound of Music'. The opening sequence in Sound of Music is very similar in the shots(especially the final shot of the sequence) and the music/instruments played(and how they're played during the final zoom in shot). Maybe it's not a unique thing, but those are the only two films that I can recall seeing that exact type of sequence.

LOTR sequence begins around 1:20 :

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmeRppQlYY&t[/youtube]

Sound of Music(most relevant from 0:50 mark) :



Even the helicopter shot of them fleeing Austria at the end kinda look like the fellowship walking over hills:

[Raxivace]

The aerial shots in Sound of Music are pretty famous, so I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Jackson looked at those in thinking about how to convey the mountains of Middle-Earth to audiences. They certainly feel similar in those clips.

[Eva Yojimbo]

LOTR are among my favorite films for precisely the reasons you lay out in your OP, and for the fact that it's just such an impressively immersive world. It's strangely the first film (series) that reminds me a lot of video games in how well it creates the sense that you're an actual part of its fantasy world throughout its runtime. I credit much of that to Jackson's eschewing of many modern filmmaking techniques that tend to make the setting less immersive and puts more focus on the drama/action.

Yeah, I don't know enough about various filmmaking techniques(or lack the language to adequately analyze), but in the following sequence where Bad-ass-Gandalf is being a bad ass, there's something about the shot at the 0:47 mark where the camera trails Gandalf on the horse, and then you get a quick glimpse of the city, that makes you feel like you're right there. We know Faramir and his boys are desperately trying to make it to Minas Tirith, we know Gandalf is riding out from the city to help them. Then we see a wide shot, followed by that trailing shot, as Gandalf turns to meet them, that suddenly makes you feel like you're in it. And the score doesn't hurt.

Took me a long time to get back to this.

In general, I've found these techniques have the biggest influence on immersiveness:

1. Wide-Angle lenses/depth-of-field -- This involves how much content there is in a shot and how much is in focus. Wide-angle lenses "see" much more than longer lenses do, and they also allow for greater depth-of-field, or how much of the foreground-to-background is in focus. This is closer to replicating how our eyes actually work.

I might also mention that this is an area where green-screen is a great but underutilized boon. In the old days, to get everything in focus from an extreme close-up to a distant landscape was impossible. With camera lenses, the closer the focal point is the lens, the shallower the depth-of-field will be and the more the background will blur (this is why portrait photographers love long lenses, because they flatten the image, blur the background, and make the face the only thing in the frame that's in focus), and this is so even with extremely wide-angle lenses. So someone like Welles, when he wanted extreme depth of field, had to utilize special effects like matte images and rear projection. With green screen it's much easier to integrate an in-focus background with an in-focus foreground, but you don't see it used this way all that often.

2. Long takes -- Long takes KEEP us immersed in whatever world the shot has established. The more we see, and the longer we see it, the more the scene "imprints" itself onto our minds. In modern cinema, especially during action scenes, it's typical to "cut" to a new shot extremely rapidly (less than 1 second), and watching that LOTR scene, most shots are lasting at least 2 or 3 seconds. It may not seem like a big difference, but it adds up.

3. Camera movement and shot type -- Rather than being a one-size-fits all rule here, I think this one is more subjective because I think different kinds of movements and shot types create different kinds of immersement. To me, what seems to work best is a combination of steady-cam (not jerky-cam), with calculated pans and tilts, and a modulation of shot types. Steady-cam allows us to feel like we're taking part in a scene (that's what you see with the camera following Gandalf) while at the same time allowing us to "see" the whole scene without things constantly getting blurred as happens with jerky-cam. Pans and tilts at the right moments can highlight action in a way that would mimic how we would react if we were there; so, eg, in the scene immediately following Galdalf, you see a low-angle shot and the camera tilt up to follow the rising bars, and a high-angle shot that tilts down as those bars fall. Modulating shot types keeps us engaged so things don't become too boring predictable.

[Cassius Clay]

National Review: Lord of the Rings Slammed for Perpetuating Racism through Depiction of Orcs.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/11/ ... n-of-orcs/

[Gendo]

My Black Friday purchase of Black Panther should arrive Thursday; hopefully will watch it then.

[Anakin McFly]

I hear that the Mordor folks in the books were strongly-coded as Muslim/Middle-Eastern, and that's something they intentionally changed in the films.

sci-fi author Andrew Duncan argued that the depiction of the orcs in Lord of the Rings is racist and will have “dire consequences . . . for society."

I think this is reaching, though. Racism (and everything else) have been a staple of literature for millennia. LOTR doesn't stand out in that regard, though it had a game-changing impact on fantasy which may have perpetuated further racist ideas. But I don't think Tolkien should be also held responsible for the authors who took on that theme and ran with it.

I may not know J. R. R. Tolkien personally (he never returns my calls, because he's dead), but I can confidently say that he didn't make the orcs completely evil creatures to advance the notion that some race of humans is completely evil.

But I have doubts about this. IIRC it was an intentional analogy to the real world and fears of the rising East.

(also, Narnia. it was the first series I fell in love with and it's still full of nostalgia and I still love it, but on recent rereadings there's quite a lot of racism (and misogyny). And not just on a racial level, but even stuff like how among the white characters you could reasonably guess if they were good or evil based on whether they had dark or fair hair, wtf, the notable exception being the White Witch.)

[Raxivace]

The writer of that article reducing Duncan's quote to "Dire consequences...for society" borders on dishonest IMHO, or at the very least shows that she didn't really understand what he was saying.

“It's hard to miss the repeated notion in Tolkien that some races are just worse than others, or that some peoples are just worse than others. And this seems to me — in the long term, if you embrace this too much — it has dire consequences for yourself and for society."

"If you embrace this too much" is a pretty critical part of his actual point. I don't think he's saying all of the evils of society are because of LotR and Tolkien and Jackson, or that if you read and watch and like Tolkien and the adaptations of his work that you're automatically some kind of monster.

That LotR can be so easily and fairly coherently incorporated into, say, the mythologies that white supremacists and so on create to justify their racism should be causing people some pause though, and perhaps to ask themselves how and why the texts were written in a way that can allow this to happen.