Winter is Here

[maz89]

Did the writers bend over backwards to create a "fuck yeah!" moment for the Starks? Yes. Did I still like it? Yeah... Have I dropped my standards a little when evaluating GoT? Maybe... but I evaluated Lost with the same levity towards its final seasons.

I found the Arya/Sansa-conspiring-together plot a lot more believable than the alternate suggested last week, which just seem contrived.*

*At this point, we should all ignore the fact that I genuinely thought Arya was threatening her sister in the last episode.

[maz89]

So what happens now? We wait until 2019...?

[maz89]

I genuinely thought Jaime was gonna die though.

And I think Cersie will die alone. In the Red Keep. At the end of the final season. The mad queen who self destructs. I don't think I've ever felt sorrier for her now that she's truly alone. Except for whatever crazy mutant is festering in her belly, thanks to Qyburn's potions.

Jaime's redemption arc has been a long time coming. And Theon's is finally here. I liked his scene with Jon. It was unusually emotional.

[Raxivace]

To me the difference is that even with lowered standards I don't think Lost was passing them by the end, whereas I think GoT is still mostly a solid show.

They haven't had any weird themes either about how "actually critical thinking is bad and fucked up" so GoT will always have that over Lost IMO.

So what happens now? We wait until 2019...?

I guess so. Westworld has had a similarly long waiting time.

In the meantime as far as GoT goes I'll try and finish the books before the final season and I guess I'll play season 2 of the Telltale game if that comes out first.

[maz89]

Haha, I know I've said this before but I like how similar our opinions on Lost are.

I'll rewatch the series instead. And wait for GRRM to finish the last two books first.

[Raxivace]

Before you rewatch GoT watch The Leftovers so I can have someone to talk about it with.

[maz89]

I might do just that, then. Plenty of time.

[Derived Absurdity]

Hey, I've seen the first season of The Leftovers!

[Raxivace]

Hey, I've seen the first season of The Leftovers!

You've seen the best season of The Leftovers tbh.

[maz89]

Well y'all were right about the Sansa/Arya stuff. I still maintain it was a badly handled plotline however.

Hmm, a lot of people seem to think that it was only when Littlefinger overplayed his hand by implying Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell that caused Sansa to finally wake the fuck up and sort stuff out with Arya and Bran.

But that doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is that Arya, Sansa and Bran talked about what a weasely worm this guy was, way back when they first met by the tree, and the trio then hatched this scheme to entrap him in that hall.

The theories on next season are already popping up with references to one Azor Ahai, the legendary hero who defeated the White Walkers the last time they surfaced.

[Raxivace]

I mean, if that's when Sansa got woke that at least fixes the problem of her and Arya acting for an audience that doesn't seem to be there without assuming things exist offscreen, but OTOH the characters really are as dumb as I thought they were. This reading doesn't technically contradict anything as far as I can tell, but it still isn't great writing IMO.

Sansa, Arya, and Bran planning this the whole time reintroduces the acting problem, and if that problem exists you have to believe that Littlefinger was somehow competent enough to spy up that conversation with offscreen spies (Maybe) while somehow missing that his own Vale dudes were also seemingly conspiring against him (If I'm understanding the implications of the soldiers refusing to escort him out of there anyways. I admit I might not be).

I don't really like doing this kind of nitpicking anymore but its a bit hard for me to look past with this plotline.

My half joking/half serious theory right now is that the Lord of Light is the true villain and will set the entire world up in flames through avatar Azor Ahai. The White Walkers are aware of this and are trying to save everyone by converting them all into snow zombies.

[Raxivace]

This plotline is the Jacob's Cabin from Lost of Game of Thrones. For it to make any sense you have to assume characters don't act reasonably in a way that kind of strains plausibility.

A better version of this arc WOULD have had Sansa and Arya and Bran* talk things out by the tree and have them try and come up with a plan to outwit Littlefinger, but instead they just fight amongst themselves and sort of think maybe the guy is up to something until they get more angry at someone else in the moment first. It's wonky af- again, not that characters need to be reasonable or logical, but they're getting played even when they sort of seem like they're expecting to get played.

*How much Bran knew and when is up for debate too. He threw the "Chaos is a ladder" line at Littlefinger but I'm not even quite sure what its meant to imply now if Sansa didn't figure shit out until after Littlefinger suggested Arya wanted to be the Lady of Winterfell.

[BruceSmith78]

The biggest problem I see with this idea that Sansa barely had a eureka moment in the last episode is how Arya would suddenly be all warm and fuzzy with Sansa if she wasn't acting earlier. So she wised up to Littlefinger and now Arya suddenly does a complete 180 about shit that didn't even have anything to do with Littlefinger, like Sansa's letter to Rob and her hesitation to denounce and silence Jon's critics, etc.?

[maz89]

Raxi, I understand your frustration, even though I don't fully share it. I'd have preferred they have gone the non-twist route myself and simply showed the Stark children putting two and two together, explaining why they felt the need to hatch this scheme (to publicly denounce Littlefinger in front of his army without him slipping away with them as he definitely would have, had he caught even a whiff of Sansa's double-crossing) and just generally bonding about the tough times they'd been through (the way Arya and Sansa did at the end of the episode). The writers omitted this scene by the tree, and after a season of impenetrable plot armor for the main characters, I can kinda understand why they did it.

I do think that the notion of Littlefinger having spies everywhere was strongly reinforced in episode 5 which showed one of his spies reporting to him, while being spied on by Arya... who was being spied on by Littlefinger. In addition to what Bruce just mentioned, it just doesn't make narrative sense for Bran not to have told his sisters about Littlefinger's past deceptions after he uttered that "Chaos is a ladder" remark, and Sansa had already expressed her reservations in earlier episodes about Baelish's dubious intentions.

The whole act in Arya's room felt too on-the-nose to be taken seriously, except by Littlefinger whose expertise in turning sister against sister backfired in the face of this deep Stark bonding. When Sansa finally lets him believe she's turned and lulls him into a false sense of security (with Brienne out of the way, so no saving Arya), the Stark trio get him. Thematically, I think it's quite fitting that his downfall lied ultimately in his inability to understand the deep rooted dynamics of the family that Catelyn and Ned Stark built. He bet on the wrong family. That's why I think his death felt earned to me.

There's been a lot of talk about "good twists" and "bad twists". Good twists = enhancing the story, themes, characters, etc. in a meaningful way, i.e. Ned Stark's death. Bad twists = cheap device by writers simply designed to 'shock', out of character and unpredictable, does not enhance story/themes retrospectively, etc, i.e. Littlefinger's death. But, honestly, the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to call it a "bad" twist.

BTW, in the comments section of some GoT piece on AVClub, I encounter this exchange:

As long as it ends better than Lost did, that's all I ask.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I heard the actor who played Walt in LOST has been cased as a mysterious figure with mysterious powers in GOT season 8, will they explain what's up with him? Probably not. There's also a scene when everyone thinks they are saved when they see a dragon coming, but Davos saves the day by writing “NOT DANI'S DRAGON" on his hand and pressing it up to a window of a crumbling castle for Theon to see.

This is you, isn't it?

[Raxivace]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/29/ ... -and-sansa

Welp. We could reasonably debate whether deleted scenes should be counted as a part of the story, but as far as determining the intentions of the writers go it really does seem like we're supposed to believe that Sansa didn't figure out what was going on until after the "Arya wants to be the Lady of Winterfell!" nonsense started. It also seems Bran did know about Littlefinger after all, but just didn't want to interfere directly because lol Three-Eyed Raven I guess.

I'm not really sure where this leaves either of our arguments. My position has been that if they wanted there to be spies in Episode 6 they would have shown them to some extent, as they did in Episode 5. However when they have what is arguably an even more event deleted from the show and relegated to being offscreen, then lol I guess.

It's weird to me this plotline has been so weird when Episode 7 has something like the play from Cersei and Euron that's done waaaayyyyy better.

This is you, isn't it?

Haha, it's not. I tend to stay away from comments sections actually. If I want to discuss something online I do it on an internet forum like its 2005.

[Derived Absurdity]

Hey, I've seen the first season of The Leftovers!

You've seen the best season of The Leftovers tbh.

Well, that can't be good, because I thought it was crap.

[Raxivace]

I thought the first season was pretty good.

[Derived Absurdity]

I thought the incessant cursing was funny.

[Cassius Clay]

I liked the part in the finale where Kane told Undertaker he knows whats coming for him...he's always known.

[Cassius Clay]

And the thing that happened with the small guy from the phalanges felt...wrong and out of character. I hated the dude but he was too smart and in control to get trapped so easily. I mean...I know Bran has superpowers but come on.

[Raxivace]

Apparently there's an animated miniseries.

[Raxivace]

Season 8 for sure won't be airing until 2019.

[BruceSmith78]

Because the shortest season of the series takes the longest to make, obviously.

[Raxivace]

Because the shortest season of the series takes the longest to make, obviously.

Yeah that part is weird. Maybe the episodes will all be longer than normal.

[maz89]

Here's to hoping the last season is not audience pandering fan service.

[Raxivace]

Here's to hoping the last season is not audience pandering fan service.

God I hope not. Like I just know that if the Hound's story ends on fucking Cleganebowl I'll be so bored with that.

[maz89]

Lol... well... I'm okay with that if it ends with the audience favorite dying. But then Arya comes on the scene to get her revenge while wearing Cersei's face... Maybe I should just have faith in the writers to NOT do this.

Anyway, I'm gonna rewatch season 7. I liked it, but I think it was a notch lower than what came before. Thrilling, for sure, but also less memorable in terms of its commentary on politics, power, etc and also it had a dearth of those strong character moments that were normal to come by in earlier seasons, as far as I remember at least (we already talked about how that whole Littlefinger-Sansa-Arya debacle could have been done in a less forced way - the themes were there but the execution fell flat). When the show was expanding with new characters and locations in earlier seasons, it seemed to have the time for slowing down and bringing some depth to scenes, but with only 6 episodes in season 8 and a smaller cast to boot (and having seen the action packed season 7), I'm afraid it will just run us through all the plot points in a dramatically compelling but thematically superficial way. In a way, can't fault the show for compressing and killing off everyone because they have to bring it to some kind of conclusion. But then it's HBO. They do thought-provoking, haunting and often ambiguous endings. So maybe there's hope.

(Speaking of HBO, don't know if I've mentioned this but see if you can find the time to watch Sharp Objects, an 8 episode miniseries. Great performances by Patricia Clarkson and Amy Adams, and a sleepy, slow, haunting vibe that kept bringing me back.)

[Raxivace]

Lol... well... I'm okay with that if it ends with the audience favorite dying. But then Arya comes on the scene to get her revenge while wearing Cersei's face... Maybe I should just have faith in the writers to NOT do this.

Yeah FWIW when I say "Cleganebowl" I specifically mean a version where the Hound kills the Mountain and then lives a happier life as a result. If the Hound challenges the Mountain and dies, or gets revenge but does not end up satisfied as a result or something, or something else happens then I'd be better with that.

Generally I just find the whole brother-feud less interesting than, say, the Hound gallivanting around with Sansa or Arya or even the hippie commune guys, and how much those encounters have or have not changed him. Kind of reminds me of Berserk, come to think of it.

Anyway, I'm gonna rewatch season 7. I liked it, but I think it was a notch lower than what came before. Thrilling, for sure, but also less memorable in terms of its commentary on politics, power, etc and also it had a dearth of those strong character moments that were normal to come by in earlier seasons, as far as I remember at least (we already talked about how that whole Littlefinger-Sansa-Arya debacle could have been done in a less forced way - the themes were there but the execution fell flat). When the show was expanding with new characters and locations in earlier seasons, it seemed to have the time for slowing down and bringing some depth to scenes, but with only 6 episodes in season 8 and a smaller cast to boot (and having seen the action packed season 7), I'm afraid it will just run us through all the plot points in a dramatically compelling but thematically superficial way. In a way, can't fault the show for compressing and killing off everyone because they have to bring it to some kind of conclusion. But then it's HBO. They do thought-provoking, haunting and often ambiguous endings. So maybe there's hope.

I might get around to rewatching season 7 (The idea of sitting through that Littlefinger plot again sounds pretty painful though tbh) but I'm definitely sympathetic to those concerns about season 8. If we get six episodes of action-heavy climaxes then that sounds honestly kind of exhausting, especially so long after the previous seasons.

Anyways I dunno that I agree about S7 having less commentary as much as to me it seems like it has no new commentary. Like its very easy to read Cersei in Season 7 as equivalent to say, these billionaire factory owners that would screw over the planet through pollution/contributing to climate change just for the sake of power/personal profit. But that idea already kind of existed in the show with the very nature of the Game of Thrones itself being kind of pointless in the face of the threat beyond the wall approaching.

Same with Dany showing how revolutionary radicals might be simply cloaking personal vendettas or selfish conquests in the guise of populism. But we've seen that before in something like the High Sparrow character.

Of course you could argue these are all variations on a theme that GoT is constantly trying to explore in new ways, but at least off of the top of my head I'm not sure I see much different in the S7 versions either. Of course, maybe we need S8 for fuller context... We shall see, I suppose.

(Speaking of HBO, don't know if I've mentioned this but see if you can find the time to watch Sharp Objects, an 8 episode miniseries. Great performances by Patricia Clarkson and Amy Adams, and a sleepy, slow, haunting vibe that kept bringing me back.)

Yeah either you or someone else has mentioned it before. I haven't really been into HBO's stuff recently (I did start True Detective Season 3 but fell behind) but if I get back into the mood for one maybe I'll check it out.

Or I could go back to the literal Maoist propaganda I've been watching I guess. Real hard choice.

[Raxivace]

One last thing I'll add that I do think its interesting that Jon basically has devolved into season 1 Jaime of all characters. He's probably the best swordsmen in the land, he's killed a kid out of love for a woman, he's committing incest with a queen who has a few other screws loose to begin with, son of a father murdered by betrayal in King's Landing etc.

If he has to kill Dany to become Azor Ahai or something as some theories go, that seems like it would create an even further parallel with Jaime killing Dany's father for the sake of the land too.

[maz89]

Yeah FWIW when I say "Cleganebowl" I specifically mean a version where the Hound kills the Mountain and then lives a happier life as a result. If the Hound challenges the Mountain and dies, or gets revenge but does not end up satisfied as a result or something, or something else happens then I'd be better with that.

Generally I just find the whole brother-feud less interesting than, say, the Hound gallivanting around with Sansa or Arya or even the hippie commune guys, and how much those encounters have or have not changed him. Kind of reminds me of Berserk, come to think of it.

Agree with all of this.

Anyways I dunno that I agree about S7 having less commentary as much as to me it seems like it has no new commentary. Like its very easy to read Cersei in Season 7 as equivalent to say, these billionaire factory owners that would screw over the planet through pollution/contributing to climate change just for the sake of power/personal profit. But that idea already kind of existed in the show with the very nature of the Game of Thrones itself being kind of pointless in the face of the threat beyond the wall approaching.

Same with Dany showing how revolutionary radicals might be simply cloaking personal vendettas or selfish conquests in the guise of populism. But we've seen that before in something like the High Sparrow character.

Of course you could argue these are all variations on a theme that GoT is constantly trying to explore in new ways, but at least off of the top of my head I'm not sure I see much different in the S7 versions either. Of course, maybe we need S8 for fuller context... We shall see, I suppose.

Hmm, you're right. Maybe it's not the lack of those themes that bothered me as much as the lack of the unexpected, strong character moments (think Tywin-Arya in season 2, Brienne-Jaime in season 3, etc - as you said earlier, GoT works best with its unusual pairings). I'm watching season 7
again though so I'm on the look out for things I might have missed the first time around. I've only seen the first episode so far and I was surprised by how much I'd forgotten about the Clegane redemption arc (as well as the scene with the Brotherhood in that cabin). Do you have plans for a rewatch? Of a season, or any particular episodes?

Yeah either you or someone else has mentioned it before. I haven't really been into HBO's stuff recently (I did start True Detective Season 3 but fell behind) but if I get back into the mood for one maybe I'll check it out.

Or I could go back to the literal Maoist propaganda I've been watching I guess. Real hard choice.

I can't believe you still haven't burned out from that marathon. I know Jimbo told me I missed out on some great films by skipping Godard's post 60s work but I just can't bring myself to watch a Western in which directors sit down for an unscripted chat about unrelated film topics, lol. Not at the moment, at least. Maybe when I'm in the mood for a documentary...

Interesting parallel there between Jon and Jaime. Wouldn't have thought it myself. Oh wait, another similarity: their names begin with the same letter... sorry.

Saw the season 6 finale a few days ago, and I liked how Dany and Yara pointed out how similar they were too (ambitious women with crazy fathers who were betrayed by someone they trusted). Interesting how these characters are just versions of each other born in different parts of the world. Or maybe it's not interesting but just logical. They're all gunning for the same thing, after all.

[Raxivace]

Hmm, you're right. Maybe it's not the lack of those themes that bothered me as much as the lack of the unexpected, strong character moments (think Tywin-Arya in season 2, Brienne-Jaime in season 3, etc - as you said earlier, GoT works best with its unusual pairings). I'm watching season 7 again though so I'm on the look out for things I might have missed the first time around. I've only seen the first episode so far and I was surprised by how much I'd forgotten about the Clegane redemption arc (as well as the scene with the Brotherhood in that cabin). Do you have plans for a rewatch? Of a season, or any particular episodes?

My initial plan was to finish reading the books and watch seasons 6+7 again but I was unable to even finish book 2 lol. Just got too distracted by 30+ year old robot cartoons and Godard and so on.

I'll try and finish book 2 at least and maybe finish the books in their entirety after the show itself is done. There's enough different there after a while to be interesting beyond general adaptation compression and so on. Maybe I'll watch seasons 6 and 7 again still, haven't really decided yet.

Anyways as far as character stuff being weaker in S7...I'd have to rewatch to say one way or another. You could certainly throw in the Aryra/Sansa/Littlefinger weirdness as evidence of that though.

can't believe you still haven't burned out from that marathon. I know Jimbo told me I missed out on some great films by skipping Godard's post 60s work but I just can't bring myself to watch a Western in which directors sit down for an unscripted chat about unrelated film topics, lol. Not at the moment, at least. Maybe when I'm in the mood for a documentary...

Well the films Jimbo is talking about when he says that are the post-Dziga Vertov Group ones, after Godard started calming down politically. IIRC even Jimbo just gave up on the DVG films. He even tried to warn me away from them lmao. BUT I WILL PREVAIL!!!!!!

Anyways those ones in the 80's and beyond are way better than the ones I'm watching now, from what I've seen. Just from what I've sampled from that post-DVG period Helas Pour Moi, Rise and Fall of a Small Film Company (Probably my Jean-Pierre Léaud performance that I've seen so far, in fact. The barely repressed mania he has going here is just wonderful), and Historie(s) du Cinema are great and definitely worth checking out. I'll probably like Goodbye to Language a a lot more if I rewatch it too (and perhaps see the 3D version). It's really only the DVG period that's actively painful IMO.

Interesting parallel there between Jon and Jaime. Wouldn't have thought it myself. Oh wait, another similarity: their names begin with the same letter... sorry.

Well you say it as a joke but its not like Game of Thrones hasn't done this kind of thing before. Theon's sister for example is named Yara in the show, which is an anagram of Arya. That's a change from the books where her name is Asha (Not to be confused with Osha, the wildling). Of course here the parallel isn't between Arya and Yara so much as it is for Theon being confused between his Greyjoy heritage and being raised by the Starks.

It kind of reminds me Robb being done in by his namesake's (Robert Baratheon's) vice- drinking, feasting, partying etc.

Saw the season 6 finale a few days ago, and I liked how Dany and Yara pointed out how similar they were too (ambitious women with crazy fathers who were betrayed by someone they trusted). Interesting how these characters are just versions of each other born in different parts of the world. Or maybe it's not interesting but just logical. They're all gunning for the same thing, after all.

I only kind of remember that scene but it does make me want to rewatch it more.

[Raxivace]

BTW have you seen the "Littlefinger faked his death" theory?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdLletj ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]

I'm not ready to commit but it is interesting at least.

[maz89]

Anyways as far as character stuff being weaker in S7...I'd have to rewatch to say one way or another. You could certainly throw in the Aryra/Sansa/Littlefinger weirdness as evidence of that though.

I'm only two episodes in so far, and I'm already beginning to change my mind about the character moments being weaker. For example, I really loved the brief exchange between Olenna and Dany in their first meeting at Dragonstone and also the discussion about where Varys' loyalties lie in the confrontation with Dany (Varys and Baelish are such interesting opposites in that both sow chaos and overthrow regimes but to serve very different goals). Even the Sansa-Jon bickering about whether he should go to Dragonstone to meet the queen - in the main hall before all of the Northern houses - was well executed (although I don't quite understand why Sansa was fine with Jon leaving only after he specifically said he would leave the North in her hands). I like the scene in which Sansa tells Jon to not make the mistakes of Ned and Robb, i.e. not to walk into a trap set up by the dragon queen. Her advice is often obvious ("don't do what [Ramsay] wants you to do" was her vague, hilarious advice, said with self-importance, to Jon the night before the Battle of the Bastards), but it is the obvious stuff that often gets overlooked by the honorable Starks. And also, at the end of the seventh season's second episode, I really liked the visual depiction of Theon's fear overcoming him and causing him to flee the scene, abandoning his sister. The way the scene was shot - camera looking down on Theon's face engulfed in shadows and lit by the fire from the burning ships - takes us back to the years(?) of grueling torture he faced at the hands of Ramsay in his poorly lit dungeons. Interesting how the director was able to evoke that ugly period of Theon's life without ever mentioning his torturer's name, and therefore subtly justifying the character's contemptible betrayal in that moment.(I totally do not remember what happens with Theon for the rest of the season, so I'm quite interested to see where it goes.)

I'll check out this Littlefinger video later and get back. I don't know if it would make sense for him to come back though.

[maz89]

Well the films Jimbo is talking about when he says that are the post-Dziga Vertov Group ones, after Godard started calming down politically. IIRC even Jimbo just gave up on the DVG films. He even tried to warn me away from them lmao. BUT I WILL PREVAIL!!!!!!

Lol, guess you're a trophy hunter in that way... The trophy here being something you award yourself after completing 100% of a director's filmography.

[Raxivace]

I'm only two episodes in so far, and I'm already beginning to change my mind about the character moments being weaker. For example, I really loved the brief exchange between Olenna and Dany in their first meeting at Dragonstone

That reminds me, Olenna's death is quite good too. "Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me."

I like the scene in which Sansa tells Jon to not make the mistakes of Ned and Robb

Yeah Sansa is hardly any kind of genius tactician but she's still the smartest Stark, other than maybe Brandon who is too drugged out on vision quest bullshit at any given moment to be particularly useful anyways.

And also, at the end of the seventh season's second episode, I really liked the visual depiction of Theon's fear overcoming him and causing him to flee the scene, abandoning his sister.

Huh, I never thought of it that way before but that's interesting. I just found the whole idea of him fleeing funny at the time.

I'll check out this Littlefinger video later and get back. I don't know if it would make sense for him to come back though.

I hope you can have it in mind during your rewatch and tell me if it holds up to you or not. I think the lack of thematic sense for Littlefinger coming back is the biggest argument against it (What would he even do? Defect to the Night King?) but still.

Lol, guess you're a trophy hunter in that way... The trophy here being something you award yourself after completing 100% of a director's filmography.

I guess it's kind of like that (Though I go after PS4 trophies too!). The thing is I actually haven't finished many directors with particularly huge filmographies- just Hitchcock, and then well after him is Kurosawa, and then Scorsese (And even for him that's not counting the documentaries which I haven't dug too far into). I guess the Coens are getting up there too in numbers. Most directors I've finished are like Welles or Kubrick in that they only have 10-15ish films which isn't that huge of an undertaking. Godard having 40+ if you just count the features (And not the weird shorts and such) is pretty unusual for me.

EDIT: Though if you count TV shows and anime, Yoshiyuki "Kill 'em All" Tomino is probably the guy I've seen the most actual directed footage of and I've been finishing his filmography too over the last 7 or so years, but uh he's also the worst director I've listed here by a good margin even on his best day. I still find him interesting though.

He also did "nihilistic fantasy where everybody dies in pointless feuding" long before George R.R. Martin wrote A Game of Thrones, but Aura Battler Dunbine is also a much worse work than the ASOIAF novels or GoT tv show.

[Raxivace]

TARLEY JUSTICE 2019 IS REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU GUYS DIDN'T BELIEVE ME BUT ITS HAPPENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[maz89]

Didn't believe you about what? Gotta be clear here, man. Too many things happening...

I thought that was a solid episode. Loved the parallels with first episode of season one. It really does feel like the beginning of the end, and it's making me sad.

[Raxivace]

I mean the thing about Dany psychopathically burning Sam's father and brother alive. People here and elswhere tried to downplay it, but I have been saying she's crazy this whole time and that she would pay the price for it.

And she is!!!! Sam is putting the wheels of justice into motion. He is the true hero of Westeros who will save us from the reign of the Mad Queen.

[maz89]

Aahhh, yes. So am I... crazy for thinking she will hand over the crown to the guy who doesn't really want it anyway? Because she has the hots for him? I guess that is out of character for her. Man, I should have seen it coming from the start...

The stuff with Sam and Jon in that crypt was so powerful btw.

[Raxivace]

Here's my theory: Dany will kill Jon to retain her power, the Northerners will kill Dany, Sam will be named King and the Night's King will be like “I can't kill Sam, he's true bro" and they will become best friends forever and march together against Cersei.

Bran will still find excuses to stare menacingly at people.

[maz89]

Bran is seriously continuing his season 6 streak of just being impolite, impatient ass. Funny that no two characters have sat down to talk about what just he's been through or why he can see what he sees. No one cares, I guess. Except Jaime. Btw, any theory as to why Brandon was specifically waiting for him? Does Jaime have a role to play as Kingslayer again? Queenslayer?

[Raxivace]

I'm not entirely sure. I really doubt its to incriminate him for pushing Bran out the window (Though I'm sure it will come up).

It could be just to get him to testify about something, like the nature of the original Mad King as a way to undermine Dany. Or perhaps to testify about what Cersei is up to. It could also just be because he has a Valyrian steel sword and that's a useful thing to have.

Maybe its a part of some elaborate plot to recruit Bronn onto their side too? He is coming to assassinate both Jaime and Tyrion after all, maybe Bran has some kind of plan in regards to that.

[Raxivace]

Come to think of it, there's that bizarre season 1 scene where Bronn of all people mentions having been north of the Wall before. It's never really been elaborated on before, but perhaps that could come into play here.

[maz89]

I got the impression that Brandon/Three-Eyed Raven is apolitical and the fight that matters to him is the one with the dead. This doesn't explain the obsession with Jon's true parentage but maybe Jon being king is required to win the fight.

[maz89]

Cersei was drinking. Did she lie about being pregnant?

[Raxivace]

Cersei was drinking. Did she lie about being pregnant?

I have bad news for you about pregnant women. Some of them continue to consume alcohol during pregnancy.

Anyways I'm not sure she was lying, though she may be trying to pass off Schrodinger's baby as Euron's.

[maz89]

Are we the only ones watching? Where are Bruce, Derived, and Cassius?

[BruceSmith78]

I'm watching. I thought Cersei was drinking because this is set in a fantasy world based on medieval times, and I don't think there were very many doctors advising women to avoid drinking during pregnancies in those times.

I didn't really think much happened this last episode, which is surprising considering how close to the end they are and how much they still need to wrap up. The biggest development is Jon Snow (if we're still calling him that) now knows who his parents are, although he had very few questions for Sam given how big of a bombshell something like was. Like, “Oh? I'm king you say? You know who my real parents are? Well I guess I'll take your word for it then."

If they stick to the prophesies of the books, I don't see how this could end any way other than Jon Snow killing Danaerys and saving the realm from the white walkers, and Jaime killing Cersei to save the realm from her brotherfuckery.

[Raxivace]

I didn't really think much happened this last episode,

I've seen a ton of people online say this, and I don't really get it. There were tons of things that happened in this episode. Jon learned about his parentage, how to train a dragon, Sam learned who murdered his brother/father, tensions between the Northerners and Dany are escalating further, we had tons of character reunions (Some of whom haven't seen each other since season 1!), Cersei finally got her Golden Company (Even if it was sans elephants), the Umbridge boy was killed etc.

Like there's a lot of stuff there, even if it was mostly character beats and stage setting and not big battles or whatever.

If they stick to the prophesies of the books, I don't see how this could end any way other than Jon Snow killing Danaerys and saving the realm from the white walkers, and Jaime killing Cersei to save the realm from her brotherfuckery.

I wonder about the Jaime thing since the show cut out the part of the prophecy you're referring to here. It'll probably happen in the books but the show could diverge wildly.

[BruceSmith78]

Everybody already knew Jon was going to fly a dragon, so that didn't really advance things in any meaningful way. I mean I guess they had to show it before he flies into battle, but still, that was a very meh moment for me. The character reunions felt like fan service. I'm a fan and I didn't really give much of a shit that Arya got to talk smack to the Hound and Gendry again, or she got to hug Jon, etc. Who the fuck cares about the Umbridge boy? Didn't we already know Euron was bringing Cersei an army?

I'm with you on the parentage thing and the tensions between Dany and the North, but that wasn't an hour's worth of content. If they wanted to give us filler, they could have just done a 10 episode season.