Winter is Here

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:15 pm

I'm not here because I stopped watching this show at the fourth season, and now I have no idea what's happening, so I can't contribute anything. I could start watching from that point, but that seems like a huge imposition to me. I'm not even managing to watch the few things I'm trying to watch.

Faustus5 · Post by **Faustus5** » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:32 pm

maz89 wrote:Are we the only ones watching? Where are Bruce, Derived, and Cassius?

I actually just started watching it. Gave up on the book series a few books in out of boredom and the feeling that everything was taking too long to get anywhere. Gave up a few episodes into the TV show during the first season because it reminded me of why I stopped reading the books.

But if I'm going to keep seeing articles about the damn show as a cultural phenomena, then I figured I might as well watch season 7 then start watching the new episodes so at least I can know what the hell people are talking about.

And honestly, I'm really liking it much to my surprise. I might actually go back to season four or so and start again since that's about where I stopped reading the books. And I might try to get my friends to play the board game. I've had it for about 16 years and never played the thing.

I do think the series is edging towards Danny paying for her mistake in burning those two guys with Jon taking the throne in the end. Or it could be wicked cool and the constant bickering between the sides ends up with all of Westeros consumed by the walking dead. But people would be pissed and HBO wouldn't allow it.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:10 am

Tbh yeah the show (And the books too from what I read of them) do probably spin their wheels a bit too much. I think its a bit more interesting in retrospect when you already have some idea of what is meant to be happening so you don't waste time wondering why the Starks haven't reunited by like season 5 or whatever, but not knowing ahead of time it can feel like a bit much.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:19 am

BruceSmith78 wrote:Everybody already knew Jon was going to fly a dragon, so that didn't really advance things in any meaningful way.

I mean yeah we all thought it was going to happen but it hadn't yet and we didn't know how it would. I think its interesting that Jon actually does take the time to learn during a moment of calm instead of, I dunno, just suddenly hopping on one out of nowhere without any experience and saving Dany in a battle or something.

Also I don't really agree that the reunions were really fanservice. It felt relatively natural and well-earned to me since all of the characters have a reason to actually be in the same place at the same time and of course, would run into each other.

Who the fuck cares about the Umbridge boy? Didn't we already know Euron was bringing Cersei an army?

I cared about the Umbridge boy, insomuch as that scene where he turned zombie was sick af.

And yeah we knew Euron was bringing Cersei an army. We got to see that it wasn't as much as she wanted though (Where are my elephants etc.), and it pushed forward the relationship between Euron and Cersei. That's a fairly reasonable followup to what we saw between them previously.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:20 am

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:59 pm

Sure, the reunions happened naturally, but they had little to no impact on me. Maybe that speaks more about my own personality, cuz the people who disagreed with me about this being an uneventful episode (like my wife) immediately pointed to the reunions, and I barely even registered half of them when they were happening. They were just scenes with characters bantering with each other about things of little import (excluding the Jon and Sam scene, of course, and the Jon and Arya scene when she cautioned him about choosing Dany over his family).

I don't feel like much has changed in the Euron and Cersei relationship. She still sees him as a useful pawn and he still sees her as an entertaining conquest.

At first I thought that HBO ad was actually part of a Sesame Street episode, and I was kind of amazed at the balls of HBO putting GoT characters on Sesame Street. I was let down when they ruined the illusion at the end.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:46 am

Dany continues to show more and more of her true colors.

Tormund's game is amazing. I don't even care that the white walkers still haven't attacked. I could watch an hour of nothing but Tormund, Brienne and Jaime acting weird and awkward around each other.

Why is the Arya scene creating such a controversy? I don't really get that one.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:56 am

I think people are still thinking of Arya as that 11 year old or whatever from season 1 and can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of her being an adult who wants to have sex now.

What's weird is that people are weirded out by that but not the extensive murder revenge spree she was on during the show.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:53 am

Raxivace wrote:
BruceSmith78 wrote:I didn't really think much happened this last episode,
I've seen a ton of people online say this, and I don't really get it. There were tons of things that happened in this episode. Jon learned about his parentage, how to train a dragon, Sam learned who murdered his brother/father, tensions between the Northerners and Dany are escalating further, we had tons of character reunions (Some of whom haven't seen each other since season 1!), Cersei finally got her Golden Company (Even if it was sans elephants), the Umbridge boy was killed etc.

You forgot to add - Bronn is sent on a mission to kill the Lannister brothers.

I like the viscerally thrilling big battle episodes and what not, but the first episode was just solid GoT for me. Slow-paced, character-driven drama. No one is talking about how well made it was, that sense of deja vu it conjured by being so symmetrical in structure to the show's first ever episode. It made me think that the players may change but the story remains the same, and also, at the same time, the characters we began the show with have come a long way to realizing their full potential.

That was the lingering feeling in the second episode, another one with a chock-full of strong character moments too. The centerpiece Jaime-Brienne scene (which gave the episode its title) was manipulative (the music swelling, the close-ups of Brienne's proud, teary face), but it also felt like an appropriate end for my favorite relationship on this show, serving as a reminder of what drives people to fight against insane odds. Recognition, honor, and love, most of all. Other than this, a dark, foreboding tone colored nearly every interaction, and there was a sense of "death is here" finality to every moment. There have been other pre-war GoT episodes built along the same themes (I remember Blackwater and Cersei's poison for Tommen vividly), and it hits hard now as nearly every character is a part of this final, big battle. What's scary is just how many secondary character arcs were wrapped up; not a good sign for their survival...

LOL, I didn't know Arya having sex was a problem for some online. Seriously, what's more troubling is her pursuit for cold blooded, ruthless vengeance and her assassin abilities. Anyway, as she's my favorite character, I'm looking forward to her kicking some cold bony ass next week - and surviving.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:19 am

Derived Absurdity wrote:I'm not here because I stopped watching this show at the fourth season, and now I have no idea what's happening, so I can't contribute anything. I could start watching from that point, but that seems like a huge imposition to me. I'm not even managing to watch the few things I'm trying to watch.

+1 to "start watching from that point"

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:21 am

Faustus5 wrote: I do think the series is edging towards Danny paying for her mistake in burning those two guys with Jon taking the throne in the end. Or it could be wicked cool and the constant bickering between the sides ends up with all of Westeros consumed by the walking dead. But people would be pissed and HBO wouldn't allow it.

Actually, I'm kind of hoping that because it is HBO, the show's ending could be truly unsettling. I mean they're the only network that could allow that. (OK, well not exactly the ending you propose...)

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:57 am

maz89 wrote:Actually, I'm kind of hoping that because it is HBO, the show's ending could be truly unsettling. I mean they're the only network that could allow that. (OK, well not exactly the ending you propose...)

Well the only American network anyways. I know there's a ton of anime that end with "everybody dies" at least.

I think its actually harder to pull off than people might think though because these endings done badly just feel boringly misanthropic rather than sad and tragic. If GoT goes for that type of thing hopefully it can pull it off.

maz89 wrote:You forgot to add - Bronn is sent on a mission to kill the Lannister brothers.

Interesting that he didn't show up in Episode 2, now that you mention it.

I like the viscerally thrilling big battle episodes and what not, but the first episode was just solid GoT for me. Slow-paced, character-driven drama. No one is talking about how well made it was, that sense of deja vu it conjured by being so symmetrical in structure to the show's first ever episode. It made me think that the players may change but the story remains the same, and also, at the same time, the characters we began the show with have come a long way to realizing their full potential.

I think the other thing about Arya's sex scene is that actually ties into this overarching theme of everyone having changed. I'm not sure anyone has really been the same.

Maybe like, Jorah if you just go by what the show depicts but even his backstory of being a slaver is very different from who he is now.

(which gave the episode its title)

I'm not even seeing these episode titles until after the fact...

Anyway, as she's my favorite character, I'm looking forward to her kicking some cold bony ass next week - and surviving.

What's crazy if that the Walkers could be defeated next episode and we go back to the political stuff for the rest.

No matter what happens though I'm curious what happens with the cold bones because they have by far been the biggest point of contention with this series for me.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:17 am

Yeah there'd need to be some kind of big showdown reserved for the final episode, right? I have a feeling the key players will survive next week and then regroup at Yara's place, where they will ponder about whether they should save Cersei/King's Landing from the white walkers. Episode 5/6, we'll get another big battle at King's Landing - a dead vs living battle that will then segue into a living vs living battle where all the key players will die.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:07 pm

This episode reminded me a lot of LoTR Two Towers, when the humans were all holed up and making preparations the night before Saruman and his orcs attacked.

I also believe that they've totally set the ground work for a retreat to the Iron Islands, which means our heroes will get their assess handed to them at Winterfell on Sunday. I'd be kinda pissed if they don't; we've had seven seasons building up this threat, it better not get eliminated in the first episode where they actually battle against it.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:04 am

maz89 wrote:
Derived Absurdity wrote:I'm not here because I stopped watching this show at the fourth season, and now I have no idea what's happening, so I can't contribute anything. I could start watching from that point, but that seems like a huge imposition to me. I'm not even managing to watch the few things I'm trying to watch.
+1 to "start watching from that point"

The fourth season pissed me the hell off. First it was Jaime raping Cersei in the sept. Then it was the complete derailment of Shae's storyline just to make Tyrion look better. Then it was ruining Catelyn's character. Then the fifth season didn't promise to be any better with Ramsay raping Sansa. So I stopped. I'm not a hardcore fan of the original series or anything, but I thought the show was just ruining it. I was almost offended on its behalf. The only way I could start watching it again is if I stop taking it seriously at all.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:41 pm

And here I thought that the fourth season was one of the stronger seasons! I'm a bit puzzled about the things that ruined the show for you - the rape stuff, Shae's storyline, Catelyn (who died in season 3 so that's what you might be referring to). But your mind is pretty much made up about all of it so I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. However, if by "not taking it seriously at all", you mean "forget that [you] read the books and watch it just for pure entertainment value without any expectations", I don't think you should be so disappointed. Well, maybe a bit because not all of it is perfect, but still, there's always some really good stuff that balances out the missteps.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:13 pm

Honestly if we're going to look at tacky uses of rape in GoT, what I'd point to is in season 1 how Dany goes from being raped by Khal Drogo to wanting to avenge his death by the end of the season. Even after having seen the show and read the first book (Where, let me remind you, she's like 13) I'm still not entirely sure how we're meant to to take that progression of events.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:57 pm

What are you puzzled about, the fact that they happened or the fact that they annoyed me?

I'm not sure how we're supposed to take Dany's arc either, but I don't think we're supposed to take Dany's behavior as a healthy, non-problematic expression of love and devotion, or think of Khal Drogo as anything other than a barbaric rapist warlord. I think Dany's arc in the first season was psychologically realistic. I'm not sure we the viewers were really meant to "approve" of it, whatever that might mean, or react to it on a level other than "yeah, this is what's happening, it's interesting, definitely keep watching."

It's different from Jaime randomly raping Cersei in front of their son's corpse, or them changing Shae's character entirely only to make her go through the exact same original story beats as if she was the same person, or Ramsay raping Sansa (who you would think had been through enough sexualized and emotional violence at that point) for no reason. I don't even remember my problem with show Catelyn to be honest. It's been a few years.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:38 pm

The fact they annoyed you as much as they did. As far as I remember, that Jaime-Cersei scene was just poorly executed; it wasn't meant to depict rape even if that's what it ultimately ended up implying. It was supposed to carry a kind of devastating, sad sex vibe, not too unrealistic for two mourning the loss of their son. We're rarely supposed to "approve" of anything on GoT and the scene was designed to be uncomfortable and unsettling given where it happens - and then it ends up seeming quite careless about the rape. Anyway, that scene, cryptic in its construction, lasted for a few minutes, max, so I'm surprised it turned things so sour you gave up on what was happening during the other 50 minutes of that episode!

What did the show 'ruin' by having Sansa fall into Ramsay's clutches though? A lot of wheels were spinning at that point in the story and it isn't unlike Sansa to become a pawn in someone's else shitty plan. In the barbaric, rapist world, there's no such thing as "enough sexualized and emotional violence". You'll see in later seasons that It's not as though the fact that it was rape is ignored or not acknowledged or not given the due weight later in the storyline.

I haven't read the books so I can't really respond to your complaint about what they did with that character. On TV though, that stuff was dramatically compelling and downright heartbreaking.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:33 am

Because Jaime raping Cersei ruins both of their characters. Jaime, because he would never rape anyone, let alone Cersei, and Cersei, who would never let Jaime rape her, especially in front of their son's body. It turning out that the writers didn't seem to even realize they were filming a rape scene eliminates that problem, in a sense, while opening up an entirely different, even bigger one. Mainly: it turns out that Game of Thrones is a show written and filmed by people who can write and shoot an overt, straightforward rape scene while remaining completely oblivious to the fact that what they are writing and shooting is, in fact, rape. I'm not sure I wanted to continue watching a show that was, apparently, that dumb. The books attempt to be a critique of patriarchy and rape culture; the show, by contrast, seemed to have bought into rape culture so completely that it can depict a woman being raped and not even be aware of it. That made me reconsider the type of show I was watching.

I don't remember thinking much of Ramsay's rape of Sansa beyond it being yet another instance of gratuitous, pointless, sexualized violence against women in a show that revels in that. Sansa had the potential to be an extremely interesting and compelling character, but the fact that, apparently, five seasons in she still functioned as nothing more than a one-dimensional victim of male violence showed to me that the writers didn't seem to care. It may have been given due weight later in the storyline, but I don't know, since I stopped paying much attention.

Faustus5 · Post by **Faustus5** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:52 am

Derived Absurdity wrote:hat. Sansa had the potential to be an extremely interesting and compelling character, but the fact that, apparently, five seasons in she still functioned as nothing more than a one-dimensional victim of male violence showed to me that the writers didn't seem to care. It may have been given due weight later in the storyline, but I don't know, since I stopped paying much attention.

I'm still catching up on previous seasons (I'm early in on season 4), but the Sansa I saw in season 7 and two episodes into season 8 is an icy smart badass.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:55 pm

^ahem, spoilers.

But yeah, Derived - Can a show end up being defined by just one misstep? I don't think it's fair to generalize the quality of eight seasons of writing and filming based on one brief, grief-ridden, murky, incestuous sex scene that looks like rape.

Still maintain the "+1 to watching from that point", lol.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:21 pm

No one tells me what to do!

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:21 pm

Close enough.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:26 am

Raxivace wrote:What's crazy if that the Walkers could be defeated next episode and we go back to the political stuff for the rest.

Huh I was right.

Anyways that was a solid episode though it was hard to see at times. I can't tell if that was an issue with the show itself or my cable or something.

Still not sure how I feel about the entire White Walker plotline in the show. I think I lean toward it not working as a whole even if the battle episodes it lead to were in general pretty good.

While idiots online may be complaining about Arya "teleporting" to kill the Night King (Seriously who gives a shit), I think the better question is if thematically it makes sense for her or not. I think it works well enough (The assassin was gonna assassinate a major figure at some point.), though again if the Night King had been more of a character instead of this weird in-between of not quite a full character and not quite working as an allegorical force of some kind it might have been better.

Looking forward Cersei shenanigans next week.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:07 am

I think I'll come back to analyse it a bit later. Right now, I'm kinda just recovering from the visceral thrill of the episode and the fanboy in me squealing in delight at Arya's masterful assassination (which I can tell you - makes totally perfect sense for her arc).

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:18 am

Now that I've had a chance to catch my breath, I have to say that I agree that the show could have dove further into the Night King lore and kept the threat of the undead alive somehow. This does not mean they had to make the Night King a full-blown character. I mean, he has always functioned well as an an evil force of nature, a consequence of a living being's plan to weaponize themselves (a plan that backfires), and an allegory for climate change (or idk, if I can borrow from TP, maybe even an allegory for man's creation of the atomic bomb born out of well-intentioned technological development). In this episode, it would have made sense to see that the threat of something so dark and sinister could not be undone so easily. I realize the show/books had been building this "prince/princess who was promised" lore, which is kinda at odds with the allegory stuff. With Azor Azhai, a corporeal figure comes into play and it hurts the metaphor to have a 'physical' person defeat against an abstract force (unless climate change can be stopped by killing it close to the type of tree where it was born with a special material)... OTOH, maybe the metaphor works if you pull back from the religion/Azor Azhai stuff - the idea being that we still have a chance to defeat climate change if some of us band together while we still have the foresight, capability and memory (Brandon being the manifestation of this) to know how to do it before it completely destroys us (and then we can go back to killing each other). This is the kind of stuff we can expect GRRM to develop way better in the books, if he ever gets around to them.

As a television episode though, it was spectacularly shot and super immersive. Lots of details here that kept repeatedly emphasizing the horror of this unbelievable, incomprehensible foe, things that made the battle live up to the hype - the Dothraki lighted weapons extinguishing into nothingness and the look of terror on the face of the Unsullied, the dense fog that disconnects Jon/Dany from the action causing mass confusion and deaths (of unimportant people, but still), the disorienting dragon chase/battle in the sky, the Last of Us episode in the library, Arya being close to the brink of death in so many scenes, Beric's final stand, the shenanigans in the crypt, the fitting end to Theon's arc.

While we need the final three episodes to close off the 'game of thrones' (and tie off the political themes that are the show's real bread and butter), I don't know how they can top this battle in terms of visceral thrill/horror/tension. Part of me wishes we still had the threat of the undead, but we'll see.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:28 am

Raxivace wrote:While idiots online may be complaining about Arya "teleporting" to kill the Night King (Seriously who gives a shit),

Woulda been nice to see her scurrying silently through the trees, or donning a mask of the undead (might have been funny though) but that would have spoiled the surprise. The writers love twists, so I guess the "how" will always remain a thorny issue among some, lol.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:28 pm

maz89 wrote:Now that I've had a chance to catch my breath, I have to say that I agree that the show could have dove further into the Night King lore and kept the threat of the undead alive somehow.

Yeah it probably should still be somewhat present. And there could still be Walkers up north somewhere I guess.

This does not mean they had to make the Night King a full-blown character.

Idk, he already has somewhat "human" character traits as it is that were presented nonverbally. The dude loves theatricality and taunting people and savors that shit (You could even say it was his fatal flaw that the Starks exploited to kill him), but there was never any real motivation that I could see either. Like I'm still not exactly sure why he wanted to kill all humans.

With Azor Azhai, a corporeal figure comes into play and it hurts the metaphor to have a 'physical' person defeat against an abstract force (unless climate change can be stopped by killing it close to the type of tree where it was born with a special material)... OTOH, maybe the metaphor works if you pull back from the religion/Azor Azhai stuff - the idea being that we still have a chance to defeat climate change if some of us band together while we still have the foresight, capability and memory (Brandon being the manifestation of this) to know how to do it before it completely destroys us (and then we can go back to killing each other). This is the kind of stuff we can expect GRRM to develop way better in the books, if he ever gets around to them.

Defeating climate change (And let's be honest at this point its less defeating and merely reducing the effects of slightly) requires a pretty fundamental difference in how we currently live or day to day lives on a global scale that frankly neither of us could probably comprehend.

Even if we try to say the metaphor is for the atomic bomb (Something I had never considered before)...again, the global community would have to change its culture pretty heavily for the threat of nuclear weapons to truly be defeated. That's where I think the metaphor in Game of Thrones fails- its lifestyles and culture that needs to be changed for these things to end, not monsters to be slain.

I've played a lot of JRPG's that use similar metaphors. In one of them catastrophic "climate change" is defeated by giving up the source of magic in the world, so people no longer have the convenience of shooting fireballs from their hands or healing wounds with easy magic- a huge loss to be sure, but one that ensures the survival of humanity. Perhaps Game of Thrones could have done something similar.

As a television episode though, it was spectacularly shot and super immersive. Lots of details here that kept repeatedly emphasizing the horror of this unbelievable, incomprehensible foe, things that made the battle live up to the hype - the Dothraki lighted weapons extinguishing into nothingness and the look of terror on the face of the Unsullied, the dense fog that disconnects Jon/Dany from the action causing mass confusion and deaths (of unimportant people, but still), the disorienting dragon chase/battle in the sky, the Last of Us episode in the library, Arya being close to the brink of death in so many scenes, Beric's final stand, the shenanigans in the crypt, the fitting end to Theon's arc.

Yeah as an actual TV episode I really liked it (I even thought of Last of Us in that Arya scene too, while also thinking of Metal Gear and that one part in Jurassic Park in the kitchen). I just wish it were the end of a story arc I liked more as a whole.

While we need the final three episodes to close off the 'game of thrones' (and tie off the political themes that are the show's real bread and butter), I don't know how they can top this battle in terms of visceral thrill/horror/tension. Part of me wishes we still had the threat of the undead, but we'll see.

They're probably going to do Cleganebowl at least, which I don't really care about but it will happen. Bronn is still coming after the Super Lannister Bros. too. I'm sure Cersei as some insane violence planned too, probably involving wildfire again (Btw can I just say I love the irony of her most successful plan being one she more or less just ripped off from Tyrion?).

maz89 wrote:Woulda been nice to see her scurrying silently through the trees, or donning a mask of the undead (might have been funny though) but that would have spoiled the surprise. The writers love twists, so I guess the "how" will always remain a thorny issue among some, lol.

I mean, we knew she was heading there after the Melisandre conversation and we even already say her sneak up in that same specific area earlier in this same season. People whining about the "how" here are just looking for reasons to complain, and I can 100% guarantee they don't have an issue with similar logistics in other things they actually like.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:09 pm

Raxivace wrote:Yeah it probably should still be somewhat present. And there could still be Walkers up north somewhere I guess.

Well technically no because all of them were brought to life by the Night King and he's gone now...

Raxivace wrote:Idk, he already has somewhat "human" character traits as it is that were presented nonverbally. The dude loves theatricality and taunting people and savors that shit (You could even say it was his fatal flaw that the Starks exploited to kill him)

Isn't it always... remember when the Viper got killed because of this flaw? Looks like GoT has sadly gone the traditional route now, the bad guys get slapped with the trait.

Raxivace wrote:That's where I think the metaphor in Game of Thrones fails- its lifestyles and culture that needs to be changed for these things to end, not monsters to be slain.

Hmm, not sure I understood what you're saying here. The whole metaphor depends on reading the 'physical' war against the undead army/monsters as mankind's 'war' against climate change. The "monsters" are to be looked at in more abstract sense - the sense of doom and danger they represent on account of their vast magnitude and their ability to multiply and grow just as the danger of climate change continues to grow and as you put it has brought us to the point of no return, etc. And in GoT terms, "changing lifestyles and cultures" for this metaphor means the unity of disparate houses which does happen at an unprecedented scale here.

So it looks like GoT is saying we can get our shit together if we act fast. Can we Rax? CAN WE?!?!

Raxivace wrote:They're probably going to do Cleganebowl at least, which I don't really care about but it will happen. Bronn is still coming after the Super Lannister Bros. too. I'm sure Cersei as some insane violence planned too, probably involving wildfire again (Btw can I just say I love the irony of her most successful plan being one she more or less just ripped off from Tyrion?).

This is something you've put into my head: if they bring Baelish back, it will redeem his weird character exit in S7 and bring the show full circle to the point at which it began.

Raxivace wrote:I mean, we knew she was heading there after the Melisandre conversation and we even already say her sneak up in that same specific area earlier in this same season. People whining about the "how" here are just looking for reasons to complain, and I can 100% guarantee they don't have an issue with similar logistics in other things they actually like.

Lol, yeah, I agree with you there. I even forgot about her sneaking up on Jon.

An opinion calling GoT's decision to not kill too many characters subversive. The parallels with the real world politics are interesting at least.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 pm

Bruce? Faustus?

Man we didn't put any spoiler tags and probably ruined the whole thing for Derived.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:56 pm

I have never cared about spoilers. I only put spoiler tags on stuff because everyone else loses their minds about them.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:26 am

I said I would be pissed if the Night King was defeated in the first episode in which they actually battled him, but when the episode ended I wasn't pissed. It felt fitting, but now that they're going to go back to bickering for the iron throne it sort of ruins the theme of stopping all the stupid, petty squabbling and banding together for the greater good.

Why the fuck do we need to see Arya sneaking into the God's Wood? She knew that was where Bran was. She knew that's where she could ambush the Night King. She's a goddam faceless fucking man (renowned as legendary assassins who always get their mark) and she knows Winterfell as well or better than anyone.

I don't think Bronn will go through with Cersei's request. I think he'll side with the Lannister brothers, mostly because he's the lovable rogue and a fan favorite, but the writers will make something up like he knows Cersei is too treacherous to trust.

Faustus5 · Post by **Faustus5** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:33 am

A reminder to folks that I'm new to the game, so to speak. I stopped after about five or six episodes of the first season, decided to try seven and finally liked it, and I have gone back to season four which is about where I stopped reading the books. Now that I know Arya's fate re the Winter King, it will be fun to watch them set it up. Apparently there were clues placed years ago. Nice touch someone pointed out--Bran gives her the dagger she would ultimately use to kill the King at the very spot she kills him.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon May 06, 2019 3:44 am

Can we give the iron throne to Sansa already? Aegon is too dumb and naive, Dany's too power hungry, and Cersei's too sadistic. Sansa ruling with Tyrion and Varys advising her and Brienne helming her army would seem like a dream team compared to the rulers Westeros has had to endure.

On a side note, I may have been wrong about a bunch of other shit, but I hit the nail on the head with Bronn.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 06, 2019 7:24 pm

If Dany had listened to Sansa, she'd still have her child.

I've seen people calling Brienne's crying out of character for her. Why?

Also, a lot of people seem to have taken offense at what Sansa says to the Hound, and by the killing of Dany's colored confidante. Not sure I follow... isn't Sansa's response a play on "what doesn't kill makes me stronger"? And do critics only see "woman of color" when they see the Missandei character?

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 06, 2019 8:02 pm

maz89 wrote:Also, a lot of people seem to have taken offense at what Sansa says to the Hound

From what I can tell, this is a part of a larger argument in culture about whether believing that surviving abuse/rape/etc. making you "stronger" actually glorifies rape/abuse/etc. or not.

In other words, is the subtext of what Sansa is saying "It's good that I got raped."? Is Game of Thrones saying "Rape is good, it makes the victim strong"?

The Missandei thing is probably because having the show's only black female lead ending up in chains before being killed is arguably tasteless. Is she just a prop to motivate other characters through dying?

I don't have a strong opinion either way on either of these topics, btw. But that's my understanding of the controversy from 30 seconds of googling each of them.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 pm

On a lighter note, its interesting that Jon gave up his direwolf this episode- the symbol of his Stark heritage.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 06, 2019 11:08 pm

Raxivace wrote:I don't have a strong opinion either way on either of these topics, btw. But that's my understanding of the controversy from 30 seconds of googling each of them.

Yeah, me neither. Simplifying the Sansa thing down to some kind of generalization is silly (its fits with her character to believe what she does), and Dany has been losing close allies left, right and center and it was just Missandei's turn. To say she was a prop discounts eight seasons of character building. The whole point was that her killing is the last straw. Contortions on Dany's face at the end there were A+.

I was a little bothered by how unceremoniously Euron disposed of poor Rhaegal and how his ships got the jump on Dany's crew. It would have helped if something along the lines of "gotta fly these injured dragons low -- oh shit, we didn't see Euron's ships" was suggested, but I guess we gotta piece that stuff together ourselves because GoT SHOCK value.

A (half-)Stark is going to King's Landing. We know what happens next. Speaking of the direwolf abandoned by Jon, the "lone wolf dies while the pack survives".

Also, why didn't Cersei just ask all her men to kill Dany and her last dragon then and there? It's the kind of thing she'd do. I can come up with a reason myself, I suppose, but I kinda wish they'd have cued the audience as to what was going on in her head.

Faustus5 · Post by **Faustus5** » Tue May 07, 2019 10:26 am

Badly written episode for reasons already mentioned. I'll add that Jaime suddenly having a completely un-motivated change of heart made no sense and the writers did Brienne a great disservice by turning her into a weeping dishrag when he left. This show is really uneven.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Tue May 07, 2019 2:25 pm

My wife and at least one other person commenting on Facebook believe Jaime didn't have a change of heart. He just told Brienne all those things because he's going on a suicide mission to kill his sister, and he doesn't want Brienne to accompany him because she'll get killed too. That was motivated by the news that his sister is already making big gains, and he senses that she will win.

I don't see any problem with Brienne crying. Didn't she cry for Renly? I think what she had with Jaime was much more real than what she had with Renly.

I thought Dany was getting ready to torch Euron's fleet, and she didn't know they were outfitted with scorpions.

I didn't think anything of the implications of Missandei's death, but I suppose that's the privilege of being white. I get to not care about or even consider the circumstances surrounding the death of the one woman of color on the show. I will say it did fit well into the way the characters are written, and I'm not one for symbolism but it could even symbolize that the Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains isn't really breaking chains.

I found Sansa's statement about her horrible mistreatment at the hands of evil men turning her into the woman she became to be both problematic and true. If she didn't go through all those awful things, she'd still be a rich girl with her head in the clouds and no real sense of how the world works. Maybe they could have found a way to say that without making it sound like a justification for rape and sexual assault, and instead made it a critique on her upbringing.

Arya also went through some horrible shitty things (although rape wasn't among them), and if she hadn't she certainly wouldn't have been able to kill the Night King, so... *shrugs*

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 13, 2019 5:57 am

Lol just fucking lol at all of the people online complaining about Dany being out of character in this episode.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon May 13, 2019 2:13 pm

Right, like what show have they been watching? This has been her character since season 1, when she burned a woman at the stake whose only crime had been poisoning the person that raped, murdered, and plundered her village.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 13, 2019 2:36 pm

Yeah for real. That's why I can't really accept these notions that her arc was somehow rushed. It's been there from the beginning.

Dany's whole character very much reminds me of Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver, where people/audience members accepted her violence for the longest time, and even celebrated it, as long as it was against "acceptable" targets. Even if the "acceptable" targets justified, it never ends with them though, and every time people are somehow shocked that violence begets more violence.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:56 pm

Thought it was a very fitting, satisfying episode.

I'm just glad Arya survived. An accidental death by dragon fire is not how I wanted my Queen to go.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:14 pm

It seems like the people who are upset by Dany being a ruthless killer are also upset that Cersei didn't get killed more... ruthlessly.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:18 pm

Raxivace wrote:Yeah for real. That's why I can't really accept these notions that her arc was somehow rushed. It's been there from the beginning.

Dany's whole character very much reminds me of Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver, where people/audience members accepted her violence for the longest time, and even celebrated it, as long as it was against "acceptable" targets. Even if the "acceptable" targets justified, it never ends with them though, and every time people are somehow shocked that violence begets more violence.

Just clicked on a couple of reviews, and I'm quite surprised that people seem to be so disappointed about Dany's arc. One complaint seems to revolve around the idea that Dany was supposed to be the breaker of chains, but she instead succumbed to some curse in her family DNA. Yes, that, or the fact that she has always been convinced of her greatness, has recently lost close allies and a child dragon, and has always refused to show restraint and mercy.

There's another review I saw that complained about how Jamie deserved a heroic death because he had 'redeemed' himself. If only people were so simple. If people in GoT got the deaths that the general audience thought they "deserve", I'd probably stop watching.

The only bit of fan service here, if you could call it that, was Cleganebowl. It was okay. I did like the nihilistic fall into the fire. There are no winners.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:20 pm

BruceSmith78 wrote:It seems like the people who are upset by Dany being a ruthless killer are also upset that Cersei didn't get killed more... ruthlessly.

Lol yeah - that review that was unhappy about Jamie's death was critical of how "easy" Cersei's death was. People are just blood thirsty.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:22 pm

Yeah I thought it was a pretty good episode, though apparently it is the lowest rated episode in the entirety of Game of Thrones on Metacritc or Rotten Tomatoes or one of those other silly, bad sites.

Even Cleganebowl I think ended up being pretty decent, if only because I thought the bit with Sandor and Arya having that last talk was pretty good.

For me, the question is where Jon plays into next week. I see at least one of two things happening.

1) He turns on Dany and stabs her a la Jaime and the Mad King. Perhaps magical Azor Ahai shit is involved, though it seems unlikely to me.

2) Jon still things he can "fix" Dany and stays loyal to her. I think Arya comes to assassinate Dany (Out of a genuine desire to save innocent lives and not for revenge). Jon defends Dany and we get Arya vs. Jon. If this happens I don't know what happens next.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:24 pm

maz89 wrote:There's another review I saw that complained about how Jamie deserved a heroic death because he had 'redeemed' himself. If only people were so simple. If people in GoT got the deaths that the general audience thought they "deserve", I'd probably stop watching.

Yeah I see a lot of people that say Jaime should have redeemed himself by killing Cersei.

I'll admit to thinking that was going to happen too, but thinking about it...Jaime showing he's a good person by killing a pregnant woman doesn't actually make much thematic sense.

Like I straight up see people online saying that Jaime's arc is completely invalidated because he didn't murder her, though I think the fact that he intended to talk her into ringing the bells and wanted to take her someplace quiet to live out the rest of the their lives does show that's he's not the same dude at the beginning of the show still.

Season 1 Jaime would have tried to assassinate Dany himself or something before the battle even started.