Ladyboys

[thesalmonofdoubt]

So, last night there was a show on the Ladyboys of Thailand (particularly Pattaya) that centred around one particular couple who set up a bar called "Sensations" or something like that.

Anyways .. I'm not actually sure if the term "Ladyboy" is socially neutral, negative or positive but that's the term the ladyboys used in reference to themselves and so, its the term that, for the purpose of this post, I will use.

So, there was a bit of content in the show that went into a bit of background as to what a ladyboys life was like in Thailand, essentially, they seem to be seem in a confusing mix of low caste undesirables (Several made the comment that if there is any trouble with tourists, the police automatically assume the ladyboys are responsible) .. as well as kind revered if they do well (there is a big beauty show specifically for ladyboys that is mainstream and winners are given a great deal of societal kudos in a general sense) .. A great many are prostitutes which seems to be seen in a different light than the western world given there is shame in not being able to give money to your family and it doesn't seem to matter that much how you earn that money - so hooking is seen as a means to an end.

More than that - there seemed to be a lot more people who become ladyboys in Thailand than in western society which I kinda thought would have been as a result of the demand for their exploitation by the western world, but, all that were interviewed genuinely seemed to identify as transgender(ish) - (in so much as most seemed to identify as a third sex rather than as women), rather than people forced into the life in order to make a living anyway they can. Which is curious and made me wonder whether this was because its less stigmatised there as opposed to elsewhere and so, less of a barrier for people to make this transition, or whether it just seems there is more there than elsewhere just because of how it was portrayed, or whether there is something else driving it all.

More interestingly - it followed a few of the men who are attracted to ladyboys as opposed to men or cis women, part of the attraction being "its a women with a penis" .. apparently, if they go thru a full sex change and remove their penises, they are less in demand.

These men don't identify as being gay at all .. or bi, and that makes a great deal of sense In a way. One of the guys made a comment that these women are so beautiful that if you didn't find them attractive, you'd have to be gay.. which was an interesting comment and a perspective I hadn't previously considered.

So, I guess it left me feeling that terms like Bi, Gay and hetro still fall short even if they sound comprehensive enuff - which is probably obvious but I hadn't thought about it in that way before. The ladyboys themselves seemed to identify as Females in some cases and a "third sex" in most cases, the latter being what seems to be the Thai cultural way of categorising them.

Anyways - it was an interesting show that dug moderately deep and humanised something that isn't realty a seen as a part of western culture all that much even tho great parts of the demand for lady boys as prostitutes comes from the western world..

[Anakin McFly]

Concepts of gender identity are likely influenced by culture to some degree, especially when it comes to those under the transgender umbrella; someone who's considered an effeminate gay cis guy in Western culture might be considered part of a third sex in another, and under the trans female spectrum in yet another. In the US for instance there wasn't always a clear line between drag queens and trans women, who were previously lumped together, and some of them did consider themselves to be of the same group.

While Thailand is known for that ladyboy culture, its mainstream society still is transphobic (and homophobic) to some degree - which is why so many of them end up in prostitution, unable to find other employment. So there's also the possibility that some of them might actually be effeminate gay men who don't particularly have a strong attachment to being male, or who are some variant of genderqueer, and realised that it was a lot more profitable to be seen as a ladyboy, plus it's a label that allows them the freedom to be openly feminine. The fact that many see themselves as a 'third sex' also supports that theory. The ones who consider themselves female would probably be analogous to trans women in the West, while those who consider themselves third sex would likely be those who are genderqueer or just effeminate cis men.

It's one of the things that struck me about Iran and its practice of pressuring gay people to transition - the people subject to that law weren't always that upset by it. I saw an interview with one of them who was surprised by the journalist's question of whether they'd have preferred to live as a feminine gay man if given the choice, and that if they'd known it was possible to be someone like that, they would have. But in the meantime they'd been pressured to transition to female and live as a woman, and weren't particularly bothered, even enjoyed it in some way - the freedom to be openly feminine and date men - other than being a little sad upon the revelation that there are people who remain male and still get to do all that.

One of the guys made a comment that these women are so beautiful that if you didn't find them attractive, you'd have to be gay.

yep! I've heard similar things from Western guys saying that they were so straight that they liked women regardless of what genitals they have. But it also reinforces how a lot of sexual attraction is shaped by culture - not the root sexual orientation itself, but what we're taught to consider attractive or repulsive, as well as individual preferences. Hence the ever-changing beauty standards for women throughout the millenia and across cultures, and the varying attitudes towards trans women in different cultures and who was 'allowed' to be attracted to them. Repulsion at trans women isn't biological, as some people like to claim - if it were, there wouldn't be so many cases of men raping trans women (and then sometimes murdering them after). They were attracted, but it was society that taught them that their attraction was disgusting and/or made them gay.

[thesalmonofdoubt]

Concepts of gender identity are likely influenced by culture to some degree, especially when it comes to those under the transgender umbrella; someone who's considered an effeminate gay cis guy in Western culture might be considered part of a third sex in another, and under the trans female spectrum in yet another.

Well - that makes a great deal of sense in so much as there could be cultural pressure for say a feminine gay man to identify as a women in certain cultures and a feminine gay man in others. I have no idea what the internal processes are with all that tho given I would have thought the gender you identify as is something quite distinct from cultural bias .. but, its not exactly my field of expertise.

While Thailand is known for that ladyboy culture, its mainstream society still is transphobic (and homophobic) to some degree - which is why so many of them end up in prostitution, unable to find other employment. So there's also the possibility that some of them might actually be effeminate gay men who don't particularly have a strong attachment to being male

They made quite a point of the homophobic, somewhat backwards legal system around this. For example, there is no legal way these people can change their sex so, if arrested (which seems to happen a lot) the police shave their heads and throw them in a cell with other men. There is no way they can get married to a man etc.
In terms of societal status ..its seemed a whole lot less clear .. essentially they were saying that these people are essentially treated as people who did something in a past life that they need to pay for in this one .. but then it went on to say that many ladyboys achieve credibility/ celebrity and fame if they are particularly good at "stuff" .. like if they are particularly beautiful or can sing etc .. far more upwardly mobile than it would appear our trans community is.. so, it was a very mixed message from my perspective.

yep! I've heard similar things from Western guys saying that they were so straight that they liked women regardless of what genitals they have. But it also reinforces how a lot of sexual attraction is shaped by culture - not the root sexual orientation itself, but what we're taught to consider attractive or repulsive, as well as individual preferences. Hence the ever-changing beauty standards for women throughout the millenia and across cultures, and the varying attitudes towards trans women in different cultures and who was 'allowed' to be attracted to them. Repulsion at trans women isn't biological, as some people like to claim - if it were, there wouldn't be so many cases of men raping trans women (and then sometimes murdering them after). They were attracted, but it was society that taught them that their attraction was disgusting and/or made them gay.

Well - one of the blokes said almost exactly your first line - Something along the lines of "some men like blondes, others brunettes and some men like women with dicks" .. I'm not certain that I don't think this in some way speaks to your sexuality. Most men like men, most men can comfortably admit that another man is attractive or not but its usually the thought of a dick that specifically puts you off your game and given most of these men specifically seem to be attracted to the idea of a women with a dick, it seems like a specific sexual preference that isn't gay straight or bi .. but something else along the spectrum.

I'm happy enuff to say that culture affects what we see as beautiful but I am uncomfortable with saying culture dictates sexual preference - I tend to think that most people are Bi at some level and so its cultural as to how that expresses itself in the numbers of people who express the side of their sexuality that is more stigmatised. Might be just my thinking but it does seem a very different thing to be culturally conditioned to find a heavy women attractive as opposed to a women with a penis .. Given most of these people seem to be western men brought up with western conditioning .. I'm not even sure the cultural aspect applies in their appetite .. I honestly have no idea tho .. and I honestly have no opinion on it either, it just seemed a curious thing that they very actively rejected the notion that they were gay .. or even bi .. but saw themselves as straight men with a preference for women with dicks.

[Anakin McFly]

I would have thought the gender you identify as is something quite distinct from cultural bias

Yes and no - someone's gender identity is independent of cultural bias, but the terms for that identity are taken from culture. It's like race, where someone's racial makeup is fixed, but someone who is considered mixed in one country (or time period) might be considered black in another under the one-drop rule, and identify themselves accordingly.

I don't know much about Thai culture, so I can't say much about the rest.

Might be just my thinking but it does seem a very different thing to be culturally conditioned to find a heavy women attractive as opposed to a women with a penis ..

I don't think it's necessarily that different, especially given how even cis people's genitals have a huge variety. For instance there are men with micropenises about an inch long, or that more closely resemble clitorises. Others have minor intersex conditions like hypospadias where the bottom of their penises haven't completely fused and resemble a vagina-like opening, but it doesn't mean that women need to be slightly lesbian in order to be sexually attracted to them. And vice versa for women with clitoromegaly - due to Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia or just naturally-high testosterone levels - who look like they have tiny penises but are otherwise cis, and their male partners probably don't consider themselves gay either, even though those women might phenotypically be no different than a trans woman who transitioned before puberty.

Different individuals also have their attractions focus on different body parts, e.g. a straight guy who is really really turned on by boobs and doesn't bother much with genitals might experience no difference in being turned on by a well-endowed trans woman vs a well-endowed cis woman, and honestly not feel gay in the slightest because of that.

There's also the fetish aspect - perhaps they're attracted to women *and* have a fetish for sexual incongruity, where it's not the penis per se that turns them on, but the way it subverses common expectations of a woman's body.

I know that on my part I've never been turned on by a trans woman's dick, including in cases when I previously assumed she was a cis man and was attracted to that, but upon learning she was trans the attraction vanished, because I'm not interested in women. So I guess I can understand the opposite happening for some straight guys.

I actually find it weirder when gay men are attracted to trans women; I've only known one case so far of a gay man dating a trans woman, and many more cases of gay men being expressly disinterested. It's overwhelmingly straight men who are attracted to them.