Cosby

[Gendo]

Oh, so it turns out that even if the allegations are false and he never raped anyone, he's STILL an absolute horrible human being:

http://thegrio.com/2015/01/09/bill-cosb ... -drinking/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Derived Absurdity]

I don't understand how this makes him a horrible human being.

[Dr_Liszt]

Woops, got the wrong thread. Sorry.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

I'm not sure how or why you don't understand DA?

Cracking rape jokes after being accused of sexual assault by 15 women is a horrid thing to do. He's mocking these women and is mocking the entire idea of rape.

[Gendo]

Woops, got the wrong thread. Sorry.

Huh? I'm guessing that you had something else here, but then edited it? We should probably figure out what people can do in terms of editing and/or deleting. Will make a thread about this in Meta.

[Derived Absurdity]

It's been at least thirty women so far, not fifteen.

It's not a horrid thing to do if he's innocent. If he's guilty then obviously it would be horrid. But if he's innocent of all the charges then joking about the situation is perfectly fine. But he's almost certainly not.

[Gendo]

So making rape jokes is ok as long as you never actually raped anyone?

[Derived Absurdity]

People are making rape jokes on this board about five threads down after gogo falsely accused OGL of rape, so take it up with all those people. People on this board make rape jokes all the time.

[Gendo]

I thought that it's been well-established that context means everything. The only jokes I saw on that thread was Troy's "that rapist" comment, and OGL's response with a picture of guy sweating. This is a somewhat private discussion among friends, among people who have firmly established themselves as fighting against rape culture. Like how Brandon makes a Latino joke and it doesn't come off as racist, because Brandon only makes such a joke among people who know very well where he stands on racism.

It is a completely different from someone who is being accused of rape saying that women should be careful if they drink around him. He's talking about a real thing here; he's speaking in public; he's an accused rapist. He has not earned, and does not get, the same level of benefit of the doubt that someone like Troy gets when joking around with a friend.

In other words, I don't see any possible way in which Troy and OGL's joke could lead to furthering rape culture, whereas Cosby's joke most certainly does.

[Dr_Liszt]

Woops, got the wrong thread. Sorry.

Huh? I'm guessing that you had something else here, but then edited it? We should probably figure out what people can do in terms of editing and/or deleting. Will make a thread about this in Meta.

SOOORRRYYY!!! I wanted to deleted and I couldn't find the button. Because I suck.
But it was just a mistake.

Also, I never liked Cosby.

[Derived Absurdity]

I thought that it's been well-established that context means everything. The only jokes I saw on that thread was Troy's "that rapist" comment, and OGL's response with a picture of guy sweating. This is a somewhat private discussion among friends, among people who have firmly established themselves as fighting against rape culture. Like how Brandon makes a Latino joke and it doesn't come off as racist, because Brandon only makes such a joke among people who know very well where he stands on racism.

It is a completely different from someone who is being accused of rape saying that women should be careful if they drink around him. He's talking about a real thing here; he's speaking in public; he's an accused rapist. He has not earned, and does not get, the same level of benefit of the doubt that someone like Troy gets when joking around with a friend.

In other words, I don't see any possible way in which Troy and OGL's joke could lead to furthering rape culture, whereas Cosby's joke most certainly does.

K.

My thinking was, in the hypothetical world you presented where Cosby has been innocent all along, that comment would have come off mostly as a psychological defense mechanism, of sorts, as a way of dealing with being falsely accused of serial rape by acting ironically self-referential and making a light-hearted joke of the situation.

[aels]

I thought that it's been well-established that context means everything. The only jokes I saw on that thread was Troy's "that rapist" comment, and OGL's response with a picture of guy sweating. This is a somewhat private discussion among friends, among people who have firmly established themselves as fighting against rape culture. Like how Brandon makes a Latino joke and it doesn't come off as racist, because Brandon only makes such a joke among people who know very well where he stands on racism.

It is a completely different from someone who is being accused of rape saying that women should be careful if they drink around him. He's talking about a real thing here; he's speaking in public; he's an accused rapist. He has not earned, and does not get, the same level of benefit of the doubt that someone like Troy gets when joking around with a friend.

In other words, I don't see any possible way in which Troy and OGL's joke could lead to furthering rape culture, whereas Cosby's joke most certainly does.

This, basically. Making rape jokes is generally in poor taste, although there is such a thing as a 'good' rape joke that doesn't derive humour at the expense of the victims*. Cosby making a rape joke while there are currently active rape investigations being pursued against him is a definite Dude, Not Funny and, IMO, evidence of shitbaggery.

*And I'd argue that the jokes about OGL are not jokes at the expense of rape victims but rather jokes at the expense of Gogo being a fucking idiot.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

Rape jokes are never light hearted when the intention is to make fun of rape or the victims. That is exactly what his joke did.

The rape jokes on this board are doing the opposite. They are mocking a well known rape apologist Gogo. This is a distinction you should be aware of. Cosby's comments are harmful to society. It's because so many people view rape as a joke, something to dismiss as the "so-called" victims were probably too drunk. His comments mock all those women out there that have been raped and are to scared to report it or have been conditioned to believe it was their fault because of how they dressed or they drank too much or they walked down a dark alley.

[Gendo]

I thought that it's been well-established that context means everything. The only jokes I saw on that thread was Troy's "that rapist" comment, and OGL's response with a picture of guy sweating. This is a somewhat private discussion among friends, among people who have firmly established themselves as fighting against rape culture. Like how Brandon makes a Latino joke and it doesn't come off as racist, because Brandon only makes such a joke among people who know very well where he stands on racism.

It is a completely different from someone who is being accused of rape saying that women should be careful if they drink around him. He's talking about a real thing here; he's speaking in public; he's an accused rapist. He has not earned, and does not get, the same level of benefit of the doubt that someone like Troy gets when joking around with a friend.

In other words, I don't see any possible way in which Troy and OGL's joke could lead to furthering rape culture, whereas Cosby's joke most certainly does.

K.

My thinking was, in the hypothetical world you presented where Cosby has been innocent all along, that comment would have come off mostly as a psychological defense mechanism, of sorts, as a way of dealing with being falsely accused of serial rape by acting ironically self-referential and making a light-hearted joke of the situation.

I will say that in the hypothetical world in which Cosby has been innocent all along, he should probably be cut a little slack, due to the fact that's what happening to him would be really terrible. But his joke would still be quite stupid to make given the circumstances.

[Derived Absurdity]

I agree it would have been dumb but that's quite a ways away from making him an "absolute horrible human being". I don't know how I would react to being falsely accused of rape by at least thirty different people, and neither do you, and I can't imagine what that could possibly be like, so I think it's better to refrain from making extreme character judgments on someone who is hypothetically going through something unimaginable like that.

[Dr_Liszt]

I agree it would have been dumb but that's quite a ways away from making him an "absolute horrible human being". I don't know how I would react to being falsely accused of rape by at least thirty different people, and neither do you, and I can't imagine what that could possibly be like, so I think it's better to refrain from making extreme character judgments on someone who is hypothetically going through something unimaginable like that.

I think it should be pointed out when someone is being an idiot in their comments. Mainly because rape jokes harm society as a whole regardless of what people are going through, so it should be pointed out.

Also for some reason people don't like Cosby as a person. I simply never liked his show, couldn't watch it, wasn't funny to me. So I don't know him beyond that dude from the Cosby show that I never watched.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

Cosby isn't all that great of a guy. Go google him, there's quite a few incidents over the years where he's being a dick at some point or another. And I agree with Liz, if someone is being a douchey ignorant twat about something as serious as rape then it needs to be pointed out as a douchey ignorant twatty thing to do.

Too many people make exceptions for celebrities and their dumbass comments.

[Derived Absurdity]

I know, I have no problem within someone tactfully informing him that his comment is silly, but saying he's a horrible person would be IMO unwarranted and underlies an attitude I really dislike.

I kind of liked his show when I was a kid, but Roseanne has always been better. Roseanne fucking rocked. I love Roseanne.

[Gendo]

Roseanne is one of the all-time great sitcoms.

And my "cut a little slack" comment was meant as a somewhat agreement with you.

[Gypsy-Vanner]

Nah, someone who's been around that long should know better. I reserve tact for those that are just naïve, not willfully ignorant like the Cosby's of the world. I'm happy to call him a douchebag and a horrible person.

[Derived Absurdity]

Roseanne is one of the all-time great sitcoms.

And my "cut a little slack" comment was meant as a somewhat agreement with you.

Ok cool. I like it when people agree with me.

Netflix put up the first fifty episodes of Roseanne recently. Probably the greatest thing it's ever done.

[Gendo]

Roseanne is one of the all-time great sitcoms.

And my "cut a little slack" comment was meant as a somewhat agreement with you.

Ok cool. I like it when people agree with me.

Netflix put up the first fifty episodes of Roseanne recently. Probably the greatest thing it's ever done.

I've had the DVDs for a long time. So I guess we agree on TV even if we don't agree on movies.

[BruceSmith78]

I think I was the first to make a rape joke in Castor's Gogo thread, and I was making light of Gogo's nonsense, not making light of rape or rape victims.

[OurGloriousLeader]

I've found references to me being a rapist in several threads now.

[Derived Absurdity]

I think I was the first to make a rape joke in Castor's Gogo thread, and I was making light of Gogo's nonsense, not making light of rape or rape victims.

I know. My point was that I would have seen Cosby's comment as a parallel to that, if he was innocent - he would have been making light of the absurdity of the situation, not rape itself.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

I think I was the first to make a rape joke in Castor's Gogo thread, and I was making light of Gogo's nonsense, not making light of rape or rape victims.

I know. My point was that I would have seen Cosby's comment as a parallel to that, if he was innocent - he would have been making light of the absurdity of the situation, not rape itself.

A guy accused of dozens of rapes over many years, who has been accused numerous times in the past and paid off a number of his accusers, "making light of the absurdity of the situation" by telling a joke where he tells a woman to be careful or he might rape her...

[Derived Absurdity]

Uh-huh.

[aels]

If, say, during the lead-up to the trial over Trayvon Martin's killing, George Zimmerman started making jokes about 'Hey, whoops, careful black kids, I might murder you!', would you have considered it in poor taste? He was eventually acquitted of any charges, after all.

[Gendo]

If, say, during the lead-up to the trial over Trayvon Martin's killing, George Zimmerman started making jokes about 'Hey, whoops, careful black kids, I might murder you!', would you have considered it in poor taste? He was eventually acquitted of any charges, after all.

Perfect analogy. Though I think DA agrees that it was in poor taste.

[aels]

Okay, in that case, replace 'poor taste' with 'the actions of an absolute horrible human being' as per your OP.

[Derived Absurdity]

If, say, during the lead-up to the trial over Trayvon Martin's killing, George Zimmerman started making jokes about 'Hey, whoops, careful black kids, I might murder you!', would you have considered it in poor taste? He was eventually acquitted of any charges, after all.

Yeah.

Although that's not a very good analogy since Zimmerman actually did kill a black kid whether he was acquitted or not, and so joking about a horrible thing he actually did would be horrific. But Cosby in this other world didn't actually do anything wrong.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

If, say, during the lead-up to the trial over Trayvon Martin's killing, George Zimmerman started making jokes about 'Hey, whoops, careful black kids, I might murder you!', would you have considered it in poor taste? He was eventually acquitted of any charges, after all.

Yeah.

Although that's not a very good analogy since Zimmerman actually did kill a black kid whether he was acquitted or not, and so joking about a horrible thing he actually did would be horrific. But Cosby in this other world didn't actually do anything wrong.

According to the court Zimmerman didn't do anything wrong.

[aels]

Because I am procrastinating from work passionately committed to social justice, I have made a graph indicating the shittiness of making a joke about how someone shouldn't drink around you in case you rape them. Cosby falls into the Cosby Zone, wherein you may be a rapist but you may not be a rapist but either way right now a bunch of people are pursuing rape cases against you and you should maybe take it pretty fucking seriously, indicating a mid-to-high level of personal shittiness depending on how guilty Cosby turns out to be it's probably very guilty.

[aels]

Please note that the graph is measured in units of Vegasness, where each unit of Vegas represents a colossal thundercunt.

[Derived Absurdity]

mkay well nice graph I guess but as I said, I'm following a much broader principle I try to take very seriously which essentially says that you shouldn't make sweeping character judgments on someone who is going through an experience, especially an acutely negative one, radically different from anything you have ever experienced and which you can't even imagine. That attitude seems to be extraordinarily arrogant to me - to think that someone who has no idea what another person is going through has the right to judge that person on whether or not he acted according to his or her own standards.

I just tried to imagine what it would have been like if Cosby had been innocent all along and what it would have been like for him personally. So here was a guy who was largely well-liked and well-respected, and now he's being falsely accused of horrifying things by thirty different people, a huge chunk of people wrongly think he's guilty, and he's now he knows going to have the reputation of a serial rapist following him for the rest of his life and beyond the grave. His memory, his identity is completely ruined, etc. Everyone thinks he's a monster. All the things that happen when someone is falsely accused of rape.

Sounds pretty awful to me. I can't really imagine going through any of that, and I can't predict what type of actions I would take or whatever else if I was stuck in that situation. I might act out in stupid irrational ways. I might say self-destructive, alienating things. Since I do sometimes make jokes as a way of dealing with personal tragedies and problems and whatnot, who's to say I wouldn't say something dumb like that at one point? Point is I don't know. So I refrain from judging.

Do you think you would be able to act perfectly rationally and humanely if you were going through something like he would be going through (again, in the fantasy world where he's innocent, and not in this one)?

I just don't think it's very nice to judge someone who is going through an experience that you can't imagine. That's where I'm coming from.

[Dr_Liszt]

I love you Aellymally!

[aels]

mkay well nice graph I guess but as I said, I'm following a much broader principle I try to take very seriously which essentially says that you shouldn't make sweeping character judgments on someone who is going through an experience, especially an acutely negative one, radically different from anything you have ever experienced and which you can't even imagine. That attitude seems to be extraordinarily arrogant to me - to think that someone who has no idea what another person is going through has the right to judge that person on whether or not he acted according to his or her own standards.

I just tried to imagine what it would have been like if Cosby had been innocent all along and what it would have been like for him personally. So here was a guy who was largely well-liked and well-respected, and now he's being falsely accused of horrifying things by thirty different people, a huge chunk of people wrongly think he's guilty, and he's now he knows going to have the reputation of a serial rapist following him for the rest of his life and beyond the grave. His memory, his identity is completely ruined, etc. Everyone thinks he's a monster. All the things that happen when someone is falsely accused of rape.

Sounds pretty awful to me. I can't really imagine going through any of that, and I can't predict what type of actions I would take or whatever else if I was stuck in that situation. I might act out in stupid irrational ways. I might say self-destructive, alienating things. Since I do sometimes make jokes as a way of dealing with personal tragedies and problems and whatnot, who's to say I wouldn't say something dumb like that at one point? Point is I don't know. So I refrain from judging.

Do you think you would be able to act perfectly rationally and humanely if you were going through something like he would be going through (again, in the fantasy world where he's innocent, and not in this one)?

I just don't think it's very nice to judge someone who is going through an experience that you can't imagine. That's where I'm coming from.

I don't think it's very nice to engage in rape apologist bullshit where you're like 'Oh, but let's imagine JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT that all 24 women who have accused BIll Cosby of rape are lying for Reasons and cut this dude some slack for making a rape joke which is the kind of joke that would be shitty even if he hadn't been accused of rape by 24 women. The real victims of rape culture are falsely accused men!" No, I don't know what Bill Cosby is going through but I also can't imagine how it feels for the women who have accused Bill Cosby, and who are currently facing an enormous amount of social stigma (because making a rape accusation is a fucking horrifying thing to have to go through and it must be even worse on a public stage) to check the news and find that he's making fucking gags about it. Whether he's guilty or not, his joke was in poor fucking taste and I don't feel at all bad for judging that kind of shit. 'Ho ho, careful, I might drug and rape you!' isn't funny when Vegas does it or when Cosby does it or when Sir David Attenborough does it.

Asking me whether I'd feel really sorry for a hypothetical Bill Cosby who is innocent is about the same as asking me how I feel about hypothetical unicorn Bill Cosby or hypothetical space Bill Cosby when what I'm mostly concerned with is the shitty behaviour of actual Bill Cosby. Who did a shitty thing. Whether he's a rapist or not.

[aels]

I love you Aellymally!

I love you too, sunshine

[Derived Absurdity]

Well, I don't think imagining what things would be like in some hypothetical counterfactual world where Cosby has been innocent all along is productive or healthy either, I was just directly responding to what was in the OP and and then I got into an argument and tried to defend myself. It's not as though I said out of nowhere "hey, just imagine this, what if it turned out he was innocent all along, would that still be bad, wouldn't you feel sorry, huh?" as some type of pointless thought experiment to make a dumb point.

[Dr_Liszt]

Derived, I say stupid shit all the time too as a defense mechanism. So I understand what you mean. But I guess people are reacting this way because Cosby is a bad human according to sources.

... and possibly a rapist.

I've been accused of being a lose whore at one point in my life and I made a LOT of jokes about it. But in my context people knew how I was and what I do. I guess it would be different for a allegedly horrible human being as Cosby.

[aels]

Well, you know, I probably came in massively hard with the 'LOOK AT THIS SHITTY RAPIST' stuff and I don't want to assume that Cosby is 100% guilty (sometimes we just know) even though I think the probability of him being falsely accused by more than 20 women is infinitesimally low. False rape accusations have been used as a tool by people like me to control and punish black men for centuries and I am aware, or hope I am aware, of Bill Cosby's social and cultural and media treatment vs, say, confirmed child rapist Roman Polanski's treatment and I don't want to act like all the power here is on Cosby's side and I imagine that being falsely accused of rape is an awful thing to go through *deep breath* but still I don't ever want to come into a situation like this with any attitude other than 'Believe the accusers'.

Although, like I say, I think I'd feel the same way about his comments whether he turns out he's guilty or not. Saying what he said makes him a horrible human being. If he's innocent, he's an asshole, if he's guilty, he's downright sociopathic.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

Anyone watching the Golden Globes? (If you are, you'll know why I'm asking.)

[Pope Bucky]

Please note that the graph is measured in units of Vegasness, where each unit of Vegas represents a colossal thundercunt.

Vegas needs to be invited here just to see this comment.

I <3 u, Aels.

[aels]

I <3 u 2!