Please read this

Post by **Gendo** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:21 pm

So some of you have seen my long Facebook post about why America is not a Christian nation. Well you know who else saw it? The Huffington Post. And they want me to post it as a blog there! So I figured it would be good if there weren't typos and stuff in it. So please do me a favor and proofread this for me? Thanks!

I've been seeing a lot of things recently about how America is turning its back on its Christian roots and how things were so much better and more Christian-like in America in times past compared to now. Now, I love America. This is mostly because I just happened to be born here, but it's my home. I am patriotic to the extent of rooting for my country, wanting to see us succeed at what we do, to improve at our failings, and to continue to be a great place to live for many. That being said, I'm not going to pretend that our country is either perfect or has had a wonderful history of being a great Christian nation. I'm going to talk about a bunch of historical facts which have actually been researched. Things that should make you question: "If this is what a Christian nation looks like, then perhaps my view of Christianity isn't what it should be."

Much of what we think of as American history began with Christopher Columbus. He was a man who, upon discovering this "new world", captured and killed over a thousand people from the native population of the land. While God may have ordered Israel to capture territory that He had planned to give to them, I doubt many would find Columbus' actions to be Christ-like. For the next couple centuries, Great Britain continued to conquer this land, bringing disease and killing many more.

Meanwhile, until 1808, America was engaged in the Atlantic Slave Trade, a practice that should need neither detail nor specific condemnation here (hopefully we can all agree that it was a horrific thing). Again, while slavery can certainly be found in the Bible, most Christians today are very eager to point out that it was not the same as what America was doing then. So, from a Christian perspective, this was not a Christian thing that America was doing, even if many at the time thought it was. This slave trade was absolutely essential to the founding of our great nation; who knows what would have become of the colonies without it? Of course, even with the discontinuation of the Atlantic Slave Trade, slavery in America continued after this for another 57 years or so. These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in. It is worth noting also that while many Christians used the Bible to justify this, many Churches at the time were opposed to slavery, and were using Christianity to fight against it. Did those churches, which were existing during the foundation of America, feel that America was being founded on Christian principles?

Shifting gears for a moment, another major foundation point of our country is the idea of freedom of religion. Long before the first amendment to the Constitution was written, various laws were being passed in the colonies (as early as 1634) declaring that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want. Now, I've read the Bible, and I'm quite sure that it does NOT teach that people should be free to practice any religion they want. In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel (which absolutely WAS a nation founded on religion) would put people to death for disobeying the laws of God. Not just for things that we have the death penalty for today, like murder, but for all sorts of things which are purely religious in nature. A nation founded upon these Biblical principles would never enact laws declaring that people are allowed to worship other gods. I believe the Bible is absolutely clear that a Christian nation is one that follows the laws of God, where idols and false religions are not tolerated. In today's world, the thing most like Christian nations that we have are churches. It is the churches and their members that have rules about obeying God's law. I suppose Heaven would be a bit like a Christian nation, though I'm not so sure that laws would be necessary to keep people obeying God at that point.

I'm not so sure how relevant what the personal religious beliefs were of those who helped found this country. I mean, a very devout Christian can go and found a country while being completely clear that he does not intend for it to be a Christian country. But even so, it is worth looking into because it is an argument that is heard quite often. Now, we can't deny that many of these founding fathers were Christians (to the best of our knowledge, as only God truly knows the heart of a man), but many others were not. James Madison, our fourth president and father of the Constitution, didn't like religion whatsoever. He said "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." He also has a great many quotes dealing with the dangers of the government being involved in religious enterprise in any way. Thomas Jefferson, our third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, was a Unitarian. Benjamin Franklin had great respect for the teachings of Jesus, but did not worship him as God. The list goes on.

At the time the Constitution was written, what did Christians think of it? Well, the more conservative ones attacked it for being lacking in Christianity. In 1793, Reverend John M. Mason criticized the document, saying that God would overturn our nation because of its godlessness. In 1811, Reverend Samuel Austin said that the Constitution's lack of Christianity would lead to its destruction. For people who wanted a theocracy, who could blame them? As mentioned before, the document specifically declares that people are allowed to commit the greatest sin of all, the only sin that actually matters to salvation: denying Christ and following false gods.

What else about our Constitution at our founding was Christ-like? How about the Three-Fifths Compromise? Let us not forget that the document itself declares that slaves are not fully human, but should count as three-fifths of a person for population counts. That doesn't sound Biblical to me. Of course, this was nullified by the 13th Amendment, but that was years later. After slavery was ended by the Civil War (yes the hearts of many Americans were so wicked that it took a devastating war to end slavery), for the next 100 years blacks continued to be treated as sub-human. Until 1965, Jim Crow laws were in place, causing great harm to black Americans (we're talking about just 50 years ago, here). If you're over 25 years old, then within your own lifetime more than half of Americans have been so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong. Yes, decades after Loving V. Virginia declared that interracial marriage was legal, more than half of our population disagreed with it. This is yet another one of those things that you can find support for in the Bible if you want to, but which most Christians today would say shouldn't be interpreted that way. Does this sound like a Christian nation?

What's another major principle that people think of when they think of America? Freedom. Independence. Right? If you read your Bible, you'll find that independence is far from a Biblical principle. God created us specifically to be dependent upon Him. He created us to worship Him, to need Him. A nation that says that we are each an individual and have the right to do whatever we want is not one that is following God's ways. Also, let us not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the senate and signed in 1797 by President John Adams, in which he clearly stated, "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Did he stutter?

Some may want to point out that our currency says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." Well, in case you don't know already, this has nothing to do with the founding of our nation. That was added to our paper money in 1956, though it was first used on some coins in 1864. And the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, without the words "under God", which were added only in 1954. Nothing to do with our founding.

So, when were these "good old days" anyway? Were they the 1600s when we were conquering and pillaging and murdering the native inhabitants? Were they the next few hundred years when we were enslaving people based on their skin color? The turn of the 20th century when women couldn't vote and children were forced to work in dangerous conditions? Or were they the 1950s, when blacks were second-class citizens and most of the people attending churches were only doing so because it was just what the culture of the time dictated?

To sum things up, going back to the question I posed in the first paragraph, if the United States is what a Christian nation really looks like, then what is Christianity? That isn't my branch of Christianity. A nation founded on actual Christian principles and values would not allow such things. Anyway, all that to say this: We are not a Christian nation. We are not a nation founded upon Christian principles. We are a nation founded upon many evil things such as slavery, with many non-Christian principles such as freedom to worship whomever you see fit. We have not abandoned our Christian roots. We are simply slowly abandoning a general sense of religious culture as the norm, and this is a good thing. "Cultural Christianity" is becoming a thing of the past. If you are a Christian, celebrate this, for "cultural Christianity" has helped to prevent many from coming to know our Lord.

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:46 pm

Corrections and suggestons in bold italic undelined.
I think that you don't believe values, you believe in values. But I could be wrong.

Gendo wrote:So some of you have seen my long Facebook post about why America is not a Christian nation. Well you know who else saw it? The Huffington Post. And they want me to post it as a blog there! So I figured it would be good if there weren't typos and stuff in it. So please do me a favor and proofread this for me? Thanks!

I've been seeing a lot of things recently about how America is turning its back on its Christian roots. About how things were so much better and more Christian-like in America in times past compared to now. Now I love America. Mostly because I just happened to be born here; but it's my home. I am patriotic to the extent of rooting for my country; wanting to see us succeed at what we do, to improve at our failings, and to continue to be a great place to live for many. But that being said, I'm not going to pretend that our country is either perfect, or has had a wonderful history of being a great Christian nation. I'm going to talk about a bunch of historical facts, which have actually been researched. Things that should make you question "if this is what a Christian nation looks like, then perhaps my view of Christianity isn't what it should be."

Much of what we think of as American history began with Christopher Columbus. A man who upon discovering this "new world", captured and killed over a thousand people from the native population of the land. While God may have ordered Israel to capture territory that He had planned to give to them, I doubt many would find Columbus' actions to be Christ-like. For the next couple centuries, Great Britain continued to conquer this land, bringing disease and killing many more.

Meanwhile, until 1808, America was engaged in the Atlantic Slave Trade. A practice that should need no detail nor specific condemnation here; hopefully we can all agree that it was a horrific thing. Again, while slavery can certainly be found in the Bible, most Christians today are very eager to point out that it was not the same as what America was doing then. So from a Christian perspective, this was not a Christian thing that America was doing, even if many at the time thought it was. And this slave trade was absolutely essential to the founding of our great nation; who knows what would have become of the colonies without it. And of course even without the African enslavement; slavery in America continued after this for another 57 years or so. These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in. Worth noting also that while many Christians used the Bible to justify this, many Churches at the time were opposed to slavery, and using Christianity to fight against it. Did those churches, who were existing during the foundation of America, feel that America was being founded on Christian principles?

Shifting gears for a moment, another major foundation point of our country is the idea of freedom of religion. Long before the first amendment to the constitution was written, various laws were being passed in the colonies, as early as 1634, declaring that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want. Now I've read the Bible, and I'm quite sure that it does NOT teach that people should be free to practice any religion they want. In the old testament, the nation of Israel, which absolutely WAS a nation founded on religion, would put people to death for disobeying the laws of God. And not just things like how we have the death penalty for murderers today, but for all sorts of things which are purely religious in nature. A nation founded upon these Biblical principles would never enact laws declaring that people are allowed to worship other gods. I believe the Bible is absolutely clear that a Christian nation is one that follows the laws of God; where idols and false religions are not tolerated. In today's world, the thing most like Christian nations that we have are churches. It is the churches and their members that have rules about obeying God's law. And I suppose heaven would be a bit like a Christian nation, though I'm not so sure that laws would be necessary to keep people obeying God at that point.

Now I'm not so sure how relevant it is what the personal religious beliefs were of those who helped found this country. I mean, a very devout Christian can go and found a country while being completely clear that he does not intend for it to be a Christian country. But even so, it is worth looking into, because it is an argument that is heard quite often. Now we can't deny that many of these founding fathers were Christians, or at least they were to the best of our knowledge, as only God truly knows the heart of a man. But many others were not. James Madison, our forth president and father of the Constitution, didn't like religion whatsoever. He said "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." He also has a great many quotes dealing with the dangers of the government being involved in religious enterprise in any way. Thomas Jefferson, our third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, was a Unitarian. Benjamin Franklin had great respect for the teachings of Jesus, but did not worship him as God. The list goes on.

At the time the constitution was written, what did Christians of that time think of it? Well the more conservative ones attacked it for being lacking in Christianity. in 1793, Reverend John M. Mason attacked the document, saying that God would overturn our nation because of its godlessness. In 1811, Reverend Samuel Austin said that the constitution's lack of Christianity would lead to its destruction. And of course there's more. And for people who wanted a theocracy, who could blame them? As mentioned before, the document specifically declares that people are allowed to do things which Christians consider the greatest sin of all, the only sin that actually matters to salvation (denying Christ and following false gods).

So what else about our constitution at our founding was Christ-like? How about the 3/5 compromise? Let us not forget that the document itself declares that slaves are not fully human, but should count as 3/5 a person for population counts. Doesn't sound Biblical to me. Of course this was nullified by the 13th amendment, but that was years later. Coming back around to that topic, once slavery was ended by the civil war (yes the hearts of many Americans were so wicked that it took a devastating war to end slavery), for the next 100 years blacks continued to be treated as sub-human. Until 1965, Jim Crow laws were in place, causing great harm to black Americans. We're talking about just 50 years ago here. And if you're over 25 years old, then within your own lifetime, more than half of Americans were so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong. Yes, decades after Loving V. Virginia declared that interracial marriage was legal, more than half of our population disagreed with it. Yet another one of those things that you can find support for in the Bible if you want to, but which most Christians today would say shouldn't be interpreted that way. Does this sound like a Christian nation?

So what's another major principle that people think of when they think of America? Freedom. Independence. Right? If you read your Bible, you'll find that independence is far from a Biblical principle. God created us specifically to be dependent upon Him. He created us to worship Him, to need Him. A nation that says that we are each individuals and have the right to do whatever we want is not one that is following God's ways. Also, let us not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the senate and signed in 1797 by President John Adams, in which he clearly stated "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Did he stutter?

Some may want to point out that our currency says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." Well in case you don't know already, this has nothing to do with the founding of our nation. That was added to our paper money in 1956, though it was first used on some coins in 1864. And the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, without the words "under God", which were added only in 1954. Nothing to do with our founding.

So when were these "good old days" anyway? The 1600's when we were conquering and pillaging and murdering the native inhabitants? The next few hundred years when we were enslaving people based on their skin color? The turn of the 20th century when women couldn't vote and children were forced to work in dangerous conditions? Or the 1950s, when blacks were second-class citizens and most of the people attending churches were only doing so because it was just what the culture of the time dictated?

So to sum things up, going back to the question I posed in the first paragraph... if that is what a Christian nation really looks like, then what is Christianity? Well that isn't my branch of Christianity. A nation founded on actual Christian principles and values would not allow such things.
Anyway, all that to say this: We are not a Christian nation. We are not a nation founded upon Christian principles. We are a nation founded upon many evil things such as slavery, with many non-Christian principles such as freedom to worship whomever you see fit. We have not abandoned our Christian roots. We are simply slowly abandoning a general sense of religious culture as the norm. And this is a good thing. "Cultural Christianity" is becoming a thing of the past. If you are a Christian, celebrate this, for "cultural Christianity" has helped to prevent many from coming to know our Lord.

CashRules · Post by **CashRules** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:00 pm

The second sentence isn't a sentence. The fourth sentence is a sentence, but it begins with a phrase that modifies the third sentence.

Post by **Gendo** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:30 pm

Thanks! Will make corrections and update later this evening.

Gypsy-Vanner · Post by **Gypsy-Vanner** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:56 pm

As with your FB Post...TL:DR.

and congrats, that's pretty cool.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:10 pm

All done. phe_de missed a lot. Please explain the meaning of the sentence I highlighted and we can figure out the best way to word it. As it is, it makes no sense.

Gendo wrote:I've been seeing a lot of things recently about how America is turning its back on its Christian roots and how things were so much better and more Christian-like in America in times past compared to now. Now, I love America. This is mostly because I just happened to be born here, but it's my home. I am patriotic to the extent of rooting for my country, wanting to see us succeed at what we do, to improve at our failings, and to continue to be a great place to live for many. That being said, I'm not going to pretend that our country is either perfect or has had a wonderful history of being a great Christian nation. I'm going to talk about a bunch of historical facts which have actually been researched. Things that should make you question: "If this is what a Christian nation looks like, then perhaps my view of Christianity isn't what it should be."

Much of what we think of as American history began with Christopher Columbus. He was a man who, upon discovering this "new world", captured and killed over a thousand people from the native population of the land. While God may have ordered Israel to capture territory that He had planned to give to them, I doubt many would find Columbus' actions to be Christ-like. For the next couple centuries, Great Britain continued to conquer this land, bringing disease and killing many more.

Meanwhile, until 1808, America was engaged in the Atlantic Slave Trade, a practice that should need neither detail nor specific condemnation here (hopefully we can all agree that it was a horrific thing). Again, while slavery can certainly be found in the Bible, most Christians today are very eager to point out that it was not the same as what America was doing then. So, from a Christian perspective, this was not a Christian thing that America was doing, even if many at the time thought it was. This slave trade was absolutely essential to the founding of our great nation; who knows what would have become of the colonies without it? And of course, even without the African enslavement; slavery in America continued after this for another 57 years or so. These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in. It is worth noting also that while many Christians used the Bible to justify this, many Churches at the time were opposed to slavery, and were using Christianity to fight against it. Did those churches, which were existing during the foundation of America, feel that America was being founded on Christian principles?

Shifting gears for a moment, another major foundation point of our country is the idea of freedom of religion. Long before the first amendment to the Constitution was written, various laws were being passed in the colonies (as early as 1634) declaring that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want. Now, I've read the Bible, and I'm quite sure that it does NOT teach that people should be free to practice any religion they want. In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel (which absolutely WAS a nation founded on religion) would put people to death for disobeying the laws of God. Not just for things that we have the death penalty for today, like murderers, but for all sorts of things which are purely religious in nature. A nation founded upon these Biblical principles would never enact laws declaring that people are allowed to worship other gods. I believe the Bible is absolutely clear that a Christian nation is one that follows the laws of God, where idols and false religions are not tolerated. In today's world, the thing most like Christian nations that we have are churches. It is the churches and their members that have rules about obeying God's law. I suppose Heaven would be a bit like a Christian nation, though I'm not so sure that laws would be necessary to keep people obeying God at that point.

I'm not so sure how relevant what the personal religious beliefs were of those who helped found this country. I mean, a very devout Christian can go and found a country while being completely clear that he does not intend for it to be a Christian country. But even so, it is worth looking into because it is an argument that is heard quite often. Now, we can't deny that many of these founding fathers were Christians (to the best of our knowledge), as only God truly knows the heart of a man. Many others were not. James Madison, our fourth president and father of the Constitution, didn't like religion whatsoever. He said "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." He also has a great many quotes dealing with the dangers of the government being involved in religious enterprise in any way. Thomas Jefferson, our third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, was a Unitarian. Benjamin Franklin had great respect for the teachings of Jesus, but did not worship him as God. The list goes on.

At the time the Constitution was written, what did Christians think of it? Well, the more conservative ones attacked it for being lacking in Christianity. In 1793, Reverend John M. Mason criticized the document, saying that God would overturn our nation because of its godlessness. In 1811, Reverend Samuel Austin said that the Constitution's lack of Christianity would lead to its destruction. For people who wanted a theocracy, who could blame them? As mentioned before, the document specifically declares that people are allowed to commit the greatest sin of all, the only sin that actually matters to salvation: denying Christ and following false gods.

So, what else about our Constitution at our founding was Christ-like? How about the Three-Fifths Compromise? Let us not forget that the document itself declares that slaves are not fully human, but should count as three-fifths of a person for population counts. That doesn't sound Biblical to me. Of course, this was nullified by the 13th Amendment, but that was years later. After slavery was ended by the Civil War (yes the hearts of many Americans were so wicked that it took a devastating war to end slavery), for the next 100 years blacks continued to be treated as sub-human. Until 1965, Jim Crow laws were in place, causing great harm to black Americans (we're talking about just 50 years ago, here). If you're over 25 years old, then within your own lifetime more than half of Americans have been so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong. Yes, decades after Loving V. Virginia declared that interracial marriage was legal, more than half of our population disagreed with it. This is yet another one of those things that you can find support for in the Bible if you want to, but which most Christians today would say shouldn't be interpreted that way. Does this sound like a Christian nation?

What's another major principle that people think of when they think of America? Freedom. Independence. Right? If you read your Bible, you'll find that independence is far from a Biblical principle. God created us specifically to be dependent upon Him. He created us to worship Him, to need Him. A nation that says that we are each an individual and have the right to do whatever we want is not one that is following God's ways. Also, let us not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the senate and signed in 1797 by President John Adams, in which he clearly stated, "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Did he stutter?

Some may want to point out that our currency says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." Well, in case you don't know already, this has nothing to do with the founding of our nation. That was added to our paper money in 1956, though it was first used on some coins in 1864. And the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, without the words "under God", which were added only in 1954. Nothing to do with our founding.

So, when were these "good old days" anyway? Were they the 1600's when we were conquering and pillaging and murdering the native inhabitants? Were they the next few hundred years when we were enslaving people based on their skin color? The turn of the 20th century when women couldn't vote and children were forced to work in dangerous conditions? Or were they the 1950s, when blacks were second-class citizens and most of the people attending churches were only doing so because it was just what the culture of the time dictated?

To sum things up, going back to the question I posed in the first paragraph, if the United States is what a Christian nation really looks like, then what is Christianity? That isn't my branch of Christianity. A nation founded on actual Christian principles and values would not allow such things.
Anyway, all that to say this: We are not a Christian nation. We are not a nation founded upon Christian principles. We are a nation founded upon many evil things such as slavery, with many non-Christian principles such as freedom to worship whomever you see fit. We have not abandoned our Christian roots. We are simply slowly abandoning a general sense of religious culture as the norm, and this is a good thing. "Cultural Christianity" is becoming a thing of the past. If you are a Christian, celebrate this, for "cultural Christianity" has helped to prevent many from coming to know our Lord.

Post by **Gendo** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:31 pm

Thanks sikax. By "African enslavement" I meant going to Africa and kidnapping slaves to bring to America, AKA the Atlantic Slave Trade. That was stopped, but slavery in America continued. I guess I can just replace "African enslavement" with "Atlantic Slave Trade".

Post by **Gendo** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:37 pm

I missed a paragraph break in the OP that was actually there in the original. I've edited it back in; but is the second-to-last paragraph too short now?

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:39 pm

Gendo wrote:Thanks sikax. By "African enslavement" I meant going to Africa and kidnapping slaves to bring to America, AKA the Atlantic Slave Trade. That was stopped, but slavery in America continued. I guess I can just replace "African enslavement" with "Atlantic Slave Trade".

Cool, that works. So:

Of course, even with the discontinuation of the African Slave Trade, slavery in America continued after this for another 57 years or so.

You and your silly semi-colons and fragments and run-ons and misplaced conjunctive clauses.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:43 pm

Gendo wrote:I missed a paragraph break in the OP that was actually there in the original. I've edited it back in; but is the second-to-last paragraph too short now?

I would not advise that break.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:47 am

Oh look. Syntax is good with syntax.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:54 am

Syntax has a BA in English and is starting his Master's in English next Spring.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:42 am

Yaaaaay!!! Congrats!

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:52 am

Gonna have to change my name to "Syntax" in a few years

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:45 am

sikax wrote:Syntax has a BA in English and is starting his Master's in English next Spring.

Ah, then I'll actually follow your critiques!

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:47 am

I did read the whole thing Gendo, I liked it.

But I don't know how to English.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:57 am

Gendo wrote:
sikax wrote:Syntax has a BA in English and is starting his Master's in English next Spring.
Ah, then I'll actually follow your critiques!

Damn straight! I is certified in the grammers.

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:03 am

Thanks a bunch, really. I went through and checked each change so I'd know what I'm posting. I just changed 2 things from your version: I moved "as only God truly knows the heart of a man" inside the parenthesis, since that's directly part of "to the best of our knowledge". And I removed the apostrophe from 1600's. It wasn't there for 1950s, and Google is telling me that it's correct without it. And I updated the Atlantic Slave Trade bit with your wording. OP is edited to have the latest. Thanks again!

*Edit* Oh, I also wanted to double-check this: "within your own lifetime more than half of Americans have been so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong." Have been sounds weird to me. I'm talking in this case about how racist Americans were at a particular point in time (the 1990s); not about an ongoing racism. So why is "have been" better than "were" here?

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:12 am

Oh yeah, I need a title. At first I had "America is not a Christian Nation", but I think "Is America a Christian Nation?" is more compelling.

Post by **aels** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:16 am

Needs to be clickbaitier, try 'You Won't Believe This Man's Opinions About America!'

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:17 am

"Some stupid people on the internet said that America was a Christian Nation. He destroys their opinion in just 1 really long essay about it."

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:23 am

The Un-Christian America.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:23 am

Or America: Destroying Christian values before it was cool.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:25 am

Don't the actual writers never choose their titles anyway? From what I hear an editor or something will make your title click-baity for you.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:30 am

Gendo wrote:Thanks a bunch, really. I went through and checked each change so I'd know what I'm posting. I just changed 2 things from your version: I moved "as only God truly knows the heart of a man" inside the parenthesis, since that's directly part of "to the best of our knowledge". And I removed the apostrophe from 1600's. It wasn't there for 1950s, and Google is telling me that it's correct without it. And I updated the Atlantic Slave Trade bit with your wording. OP is edited to have the latest. Thanks again!

*Edit* Oh, I also wanted to double-check this: "within your own lifetime more than half of Americans have been so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong." Have been sounds weird to me. I'm talking in this case about how racist Americans were at a particular point in time (the 1990s); not about an ongoing racism. So why is "have been" better than "were" here?

You are correct about the first thing, putting "as only God..." in parentheses. Oops. But do this:

Now, we can't deny that many of these founding fathers were Christians (to the best of our knowledge, as only God truly knows the heart of a man), but many others were not.

The "many others were not" is related enough to the first sentence to be a part of it.

However, keep the second thing "have been". The phrase isn't about the period of racism but about "your own lifetime", which isn't over yet.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:35 am

"Some may want to point out that our currency says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." Well, in case you don't know already, this has nothing to do with the founding of our nation. That was added to our paper money in 1956, though it was first used on some coins in 1864. And the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, without the words "under God", which were added only in 1954. Nothing to do with our founding."

You should add this thing was part of the anti-communist scare tactic.

Not really. I just wanted to bring that up.

Blade Azaezel · Post by **Blade Azaezel** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:18 am

Too many of your paragraphs start with the word 'So'. Can you change that?

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:59 pm

I'm only counting 2, but I do think it would sound better if I just eliminated the first one.

Blade Azaezel · Post by **Blade Azaezel** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:23 pm

Gendo wrote:I'm only counting 2, but I do think it would sound better if I just eliminated the first one.

I read 4 in phe_de's copy and paste, but yes, there are only 2 in the later version. I didn't re-read that one.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Blade Azaezel wrote:
Gendo wrote:I'm only counting 2, but I do think it would sound better if I just eliminated the first one.
I read 4 in phe_de's copy and paste, but yes, there are only 2 in the later version. I didn't re-read that one.

Yes, there were far too many "so's". The remaining ones aren't necessarily incorrect, but are dispensable.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:27 pm

It really all depends on how professional it's supposed to be. I'm sure The Huffington Post will proofread it themselves and change certain things stylistically, so don't trip too hard on it being perfect.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:07 pm

I went through it again and made a few minor changes, highlighted in red.

I've been seeing a lot of things recently about how America is turning its back on its Christian roots and how things were so much better and more Christian-like in America in times past compared to now. Now, I love America. This is mostly because I just happened to be born here, but it's my home. I am patriotic to the extent of rooting for my country, wanting to see us succeed at what we do, to improve at our failings, and to continue to be a great place to live for many. That being said, I'm not going to pretend that our country is either perfect or has had a wonderful history of being a great Christian nation. I'm going to talk about a bunch of historical facts which have actually been researched. Things that should make you question: "If this is what a Christian nation looks like, then perhaps my view of Christianity isn't what it should be."

Much of what we think of as American history began with Christopher Columbus. He was a man who, upon discovering this "new world", captured and killed over a thousand people from the native population of the land. While God may have ordered Israel to capture territory that He had planned to give to them, I doubt many would find Columbus' actions to be Christ-like. For the next couple centuries, Great Britain continued to conquer this land, bringing disease and killing many more.

Meanwhile, until 1808, America was engaged in the Atlantic Slave Trade, a practice that should need neither detail nor specific condemnation here (hopefully we can all agree that it was a horrific thing). Again, while slavery can certainly be found in the Bible, most Christians today are very eager to point out that it was not the same as what America was doing then. So, from a Christian perspective, this was not a Christian thing that America was doing, even if many at the time thought it was. This slave trade was absolutely essential to the founding of our great nation; who knows what would have become of the colonies without it? Of course, even with the discontinuation of the Atlantic Slave Trade, slavery in America continued after this for another 57 years or so. These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in. It is worth noting also that while many Christians used the Bible to justify this, many Churches at the time were opposed to slavery, and were using Christianity to fight against it. Did those churches, which existed during the foundation of America, feel that America was being founded on Christian principles?

Shifting gears for a moment, another major foundation point of our country is the idea of freedom of religion. Long before the first amendment to the Constitution was written, various laws were being passed in the colonies (as early as 1634) declaring that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want. Now, I've read the Bible, and I'm quite sure that it does NOT teach that people should be free to practice any religion they want. In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel (which absolutely WAS a nation founded on religion) would put people to death for disobeying the laws of God. Not just for things that we have the death penalty for today, like murder, but for all sorts of things which are purely religious in nature. A nation founded upon these Biblical principles would never enact laws declaring that people are allowed to worship other gods. I believe the Bible is absolutely clear that a Christian nation is one that follows the laws of God, where idols and false religions are not tolerated. In today's world, the thing most like Christian nations that we have are churches. It is the churches and their members that have rules about obeying God's law. I suppose Heaven would be a bit like a Christian nation, though I'm not so sure that laws would be necessary to keep people obeying God at that point.

I'm not so sure how relevant what the personal religious beliefs were of those who helped found this country. I mean, a very devout Christian can go and found a country while being completely clear that he does not intend for it to be a Christian country. But even so, it is worth looking into because it is an argument that is heard quite often. Now, we can't deny that many of these founding fathers were Christians (to the best of our knowledge, as only God truly knows the heart of a man), but many others were not. James Madison, our fourth president and father of the Constitution, didn't like religion whatsoever. He said, "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." Madison also has a great many quotes dealing with the dangers of the government being involved in religious enterprise in any way. Thomas Jefferson, our third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, was a Unitarian. Benjamin Franklin had great respect for the teachings of Jesus, but did not worship him as God. The list goes on.

At the time the Constitution was written, what did Christians think of it? The more conservative ones attacked it for lacking in Christianity. In 1793, Reverend John M. Mason criticized the document, saying that God would overturn our nation because of its godlessness. In 1811, Reverend Samuel Austin said that the Constitution's lack of Christianity would lead to its destruction. For people who wanted a theocracy, who could blame them? As mentioned before, the document specifically declares that people are allowed to commit the greatest sin of all, the only sin that actually matters to salvation: denying Christ and following false gods.

***Question on "its". Are you talking about the destruction of the Constitution or of the country?***

What else about our Constitution at our founding was Christ-like? How about the Three-Fifths Compromise? Let us not forget that the document itself declares that slaves are not fully human, but should count as three-fifths of a person for population counts. That doesn't sound Biblical to me. Of course, this was nullified by the 13th Amendment, but that was years later. After slavery was ended by the Civil War (yes the hearts of many Americans were so wicked that it took a devastating war to end slavery), for the next 100 years blacks continued to be treated as sub-human. Until 1965, Jim Crow laws were in place, causing great harm to black Americans (we're talking about just 50 years ago, here). If you're over 25 years old, then within your own lifetime more than half of Americans have been so racist as to believe that interracial marriage was wrong. Yes, decades after Loving V. Virginia declared that interracial marriage was legal, more than half of our population disagreed with it. This is yet another one of those things that you can find support for in the Bible if you want to, but which most Christians today would say shouldn't be interpreted that way. Does this sound like a Christian nation?

What's another major principle that people think of when they think of America? Freedom. Independence. Right? If you read your Bible, you'll find that independence is far from a Biblical principle. God created us specifically to be dependent upon Him. He created us to worship Him, to need Him. A nation that says that we are each an individual and have the right to do whatever we want is not one that is following God's ways. Also, let us not forget the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the senate and signed in 1797 by President John Adams, in which he clearly stated, "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Did he stutter?

Some may want to point out that our currency says "In God We Trust" and our Pledge of Allegiance says "One Nation Under God." Well, in case you don't know already, this has nothing to do with the founding of our nation. That was added to our paper money in 1956, though it was first used on some coins in 1864. And the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, without the words "under God", which were added only in 1954. Nothing to do with our founding.

So, when were these "good old days" anyway? Were they the 1600s when we were conquering and pillaging and murdering the native inhabitants? Were they the next few hundred years when we were enslaving people based on their skin color? The turn of the 20th century when women couldn't vote and children were forced to work in dangerous conditions? Or were they the 1950s, when blacks were second-class citizens and most of the people attending churches were only doing so because it was what the culture of the time dictated?

To sum things up, going back to the question I posed in the first paragraph, if the United States is what a Christian nation really looks like, then what is Christianity? That isn't my branch of Christianity. A nation founded on actual Christian principles and values would not allow such things. Anyway, all that to say this: We are not a Christian nation. We are not a nation founded upon Christian principles. We are a nation founded upon many evil things such as slavery, with many non-Christian principles such as freedom to worship whomever you see fit. We have not abandoned our Christian roots. We are simply slowly abandoning a general sense of religious culture as the norm, and this is a good thing. "Cultural Christianity" is becoming a thing of the past. If you are a Christian, celebrate this, for "cultural Christianity" has helped to prevent many from coming to know our Lord.

Also, depending on the level of professionalism this requires, consider providing citations for the many quotes and things.

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:40 pm

Well I published it just before the last few comments. They're minor, so it should be fine. As for the destruction, I think he means the constitution, but I'm actually not completely sure.

And apparently my updating of the title wasn't saved or something, and it was published under the original title. Oh well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-cr ... 50002.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:53 pm

Nice! Congratulations, looks good.

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:58 pm

Thanks again for your help! It's featured on the front page!

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:59 pm

Congratulations!

When I proofread your piece, I was only looking for obvious spelling errors, not stylistic improvements. And English is only my third language.
So maybe sikax was a better proofreader.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:12 pm

Congrats man.

I'm looking forward to reading the comments section.

Blade Azaezel · Post by **Blade Azaezel** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:39 pm

The comments should indeed provide a few shits and giggles.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:47 pm

Gendo wrote:Thanks again for your help! It's featured on the front page!

I expect a cut of the massive profits this publication is going to generate.

Ptolemy_Banana · Post by **Ptolemy_Banana** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:55 pm

I dislike (some of) your premise but admire your moxie. That said, I can't believe nobody spotted the sentence ended with a preposition.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:00 pm

Ptolemy_Banana wrote:I dislike your premise but admire your moxie. That said, I can't believe nobody spotted the sentence ended with a preposition.

I assume you mean this:

These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in.

For something as informal as a blog, reading "These are not the type of Christian values in which I believe" is silly and sounds pretentious.

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:02 pm

Or maybe

The list goes on.

"On goes the list," perhaps?

Ptolemy_Banana · Post by **Ptolemy_Banana** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:07 pm

sikax wrote:
Ptolemy_Banana wrote:I dislike your premise but admire your moxie. That said, I can't believe nobody spotted the sentence ended with a preposition.
I assume you mean this:

These are not the type of Christian values that I believe in.

Actually I had no idea whether there were any sentences ended with prepositions, I said that in the hope that someone would reread the whole thing searching for something that wasn't there.

sikax wrote:For something as informal as a blog, reading "These are not the type of Christian values in which I believe" is silly and sounds pretentious.

There's a quote often attributed to Churchill about just this kind of thing - "This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."

Post by **Islandmur** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:15 pm

Gendo wrote:Thanks again for your help! It's featured on the front page!

Congrats! nicely done!

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:28 pm

Ptolemy_Banana wrote:There's a quote often attributed to Churchill about just this kind of thing - "This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."

Good stuff

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:55 pm

Congrats! I now know someone who's been featured on Huffington Post. :D

Post by **aels** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:36 pm

Congrats, Gendo! How did they find your post in the first place?

sikax · Post by **sikax** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:47 pm

aels wrote:Congrats, Gendo! How did they find your post in the first place?

That's what I was wondering. If HuffPo is scanning Facebook for interesting things to publish, that's a scary thought.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:01 pm

An old friend of mine works for HuffPo. (Like, really old friend. Went to school with him in 7th and 8th grade; haven't seen him since). He saw my post on Facebook and asked if I'd be interested in having it published as a blog. After I said yes he forwarded it to the blog editors who said they liked it.

Most everything I post on Facebook is visible to "friends only", but I actually did make that one public after a few people asked me if they could share it.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Woot, just reached 100 FB shares! (And I'm guessing that that's only counting people who shared from HuffPro, not people who shared my link through my Facebook.)