"The plight of the bitter nerd: Why so many awkward, shy guys end up hating feminism"

[Anakin McFly]

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/10/the_pli ... _feminism/

my favourite comment said: "ust before I looked at the draft saying $4227 , I didn't believe that my cousin was trully bringing in money part-time at there labtop. . there sisters roommate has been doing this 4 only ten months and a short time ago paid for the morgage on their home and bourt Bugatti Veyron . visit the site,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,")

The problem is that those guys assume that it's a feminism thing or 'female privilege' or whatever, when it's not about that so much as the shy awkwardness, and that them having it harder doesn't translate at all to men having it harder, which is dumb. I'm a shy, awkward, bitter nerd who has never been on a date. I do feel their pain and sexual frustration, really, but I'm also gay and thus fully aware that women or feminism have nothing at all to do with my issues. And there's no reason to believe my loneliness would magically be All Their Fault I was only attracted to women. The implications are also gross - presumably they think they'd be happier in a world without feminism, where women are forced to have sex with them. That's basically institutionalised rape.

although I hate it when people deliberately make fun of awkward people, like some are doing in the comments. It just gives me flashbacks to childhood bullying and makes me want to stab things. Small, adorable things. Also, there's a high rate of autism spectrum disorder in the nerd community, and if you're making fun of autistic people for being socially oblivious you're just being a dick. A lot of the stuff Aaronson in particular wrote reeks of depression and major social anxiety, possibly OCD as well, which I definitely relate to, and some of the criticism directed at him seems to be blaming him for the messed up thought patterns that result from said mental health issues. It's possible to criticise their arguments - there is already so much to criticise - without further poking them where it hurts by going "ur such a loser no wimmen will ever love you lol".

edit: oh, I found this comment by Aaronson:

"My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man ... Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn't act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. born a 'woman', living as a gay man, still forever alone. and also convinced with far more evidence that things would have been way easier if I'd been born a heterosexual male.

that said, I've been there regarding the second part back when I was more heavily immersed in online social justice literature, because it took my social anxiety to new heights of fear thinking that in any interaction or thing I said, I might be hurting others with my privilege or doing something problematic - like transitioning to male and thus receiving more male privilege at the expense of women - and it made me a bad person; which then made me further avoid any social interaction so as not to risk potentially hurting someone or creeping them out, which just reinforced that whole cycle. and it really, really sucks. that strain of OCD is hell. But it's still not feminism's fault.

[aels]

That was really interesting. I know I'm going to sound like a broken record - a broken MANHATING record - but what I consider to be a really crucial factor in why these shy, awkward, self-loathing guys end up hating feminism is, well, patriarchy. Because the world is full of shy, awkward, self-loathing women who can't get boyfriends. I know them. I've *been* them. But I've very rarely seen these women lash out against men in the same way the shy, awkward dudes are prone to lash out against women. I don't know many misandrist nerdy girls but I cannot count the great, seething tide of misogynist nerdy boys I have met in my life, and I have to believe that this is down to differences in how men and women are socialised to view themselves and the world. I have a dear friend, who is not great socially and has trouble meeting guys (and girls, in her case) and she turns it all in on herself. In my experience, women are much more likely to turn their negative feelings inwards. Instead of 'Nice girls only want to date handsome men, what a bunch of superficial whores', it's 'Nice guys only want to date pretty girls, I must be a fat, ugly piece of shit'. Which is not to say that these guys don't feel self-loathing, because it's pretty obvious that they do, but it also tends to go hand in hand with a lot of aggression towards those they feel has wronged them. I don't know if this is an entitlement thing, like these dudes feel they have been unfairly denied something that they have a right to expect, but I think as a whole, most dudes definitely process and act out rejection very differently to most women.

Oh also, even though I do have a lot of sympathy for these guys because it's awful to feel shy and awkward and unlovable (source: MY LIFE), I roll my eyes so fucking hard at all this 'Nobody knows suffering like me, a cishet dude, I am literally the only person who has ever been rejected, how can I be privileged when sometimes I feel sad, also stop talking about structural inequality and start talking about my hurt feelings' bullshit.

(NOT ALL MEN, NOT ALL WOMEN, MY OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS)

[Dr_Liszt]

My creepy catholic circle were composed by nerdy bitter possibly virgin boys and in university I hang out with outgoing players. So being in both worlds on how people treat each other, I give you evidence that players, those men that chat up girls for sexual activities, actually treat women better than the nice nerdy boys.

I mean, there is a sensitivity of "she is a human being" from my university friends, while the nerdy freaks treat women differently, as if they weren't people. The nerdy boys tend to look down or talk down on women, while the others tend to have a little bit more respect for them.

[Derived Absurdity]

I was wondering if someone would post this drama here. I mean, I thought about it earlier, but then I decided not to, because... I didn't really want to.

I've been following it off and on since mostly the beginning shortly after Aaronson posted his comment. I don't really have much of substance to say about it, though... I can sympathize greatly with both "sides" of the debate because for one, I was very shy and awkward and self-hating in high school, and the original comment sort of struck a chord with me, even though there were lots of things about it I didn't really like the first time I read it. I went through the exact same thing he went through - the terror, the loneliness, the suicidal depression, the self-hatred, the bitterness, etc. I even remember that I longed very much, like him, for chemical castration so that I could get rid of my dirty disgusting thoughts (and to some extent I still want that). And at the same time I was a pretty hardcore feminist (in beliefs, at least, if not actions), turning into a radical feminist shortly after I found out about it, and - like him - I felt throughout my teenage years like I was accosted with messages about how I was privileged, entitled, deluded, secretly misogynist, etc, which only made me feel more self-hatred. It seemed like they were two opposing parts of my brain, in some sense - my radical feminism and my sense of bitterness were at a tug-of-war with each other for years.

And yes, I was very bitter, in that many men - the type of men whom Aaronson calls "Neanderthals" and who I'll diplomatically refer to as "very clearly not very feminist" - were having quite a bit more success at the romance department than I was, despite me trying as hard as I possibly could to be as pro-women as possible. I had all the makings of a Nice Guy, but I think what separated me from your average bitter misogynist was that I didn't put the blame on my lack of success on women or feminism or the Neanderthals, but rather I just put the blame on the nature of the world at large - like, this is simply how things are, everything is deeply unfair, no one's at fault for it, but it really sucks anyway." I don't remember having any misogynistic thoughts in the "why won't these stupid bitches fuck me" vein. It was more like the "the world sucks and I wish I was never born, but I deserve it all for being so awful anyway" kind of vein.

And my story also parallels his in that the biggest psychological step I took in building my own confidence and self-esteem and giving myself some mental peace was by "rejecting" many aspects of what I perceived to be feminism - that I don't need to be on constant lookout for "microaggressions" or hidden entitlement or secret sexism, that I don't need to feel deeply ashamed for feeling sexual thoughts, that I don't need to treat women with exaggerated care and respect to show how I'm not a misogynist, etc. And it was only then when I was finally able to have some peace of mind and like myself a little bit more.

So I sympathize with both groups currently flinging mud at each other over this - the shy male nerds and the feminists - even though from my perspective both groups are currently purposely misrepresenting each other, caricaturing the others' positions (including in the article you linked to), getting outraged over nothing, acting like their opponents are subhumans not worthy of any respect, and generally behaving as differing political tribes do. It's a very emotional subject for many people, so I guess I can sympathize with that too. But I've read quite a lot of articles on this ever since the original comment - maybe even all that have been written, although I'm not sure - from both "sides" and not a single one hasn't been dishonest or pointlessly abusive in some way. So this is a case in which everyone involved sucks.

But as to the original comment, yes, even though I said I sympathize with it, I agree with the others in that his problems were mostly in his head and that blaming feminism was largely wrong-headed (although that by no means diminishes his suffering), that his comment was extremely narcissistic and ill-timed considering what he was replying to, that he doesn't seem to realize that many female nerds go through the exact same thing only worse, etc. And of course the other side mostly misrepresented him and just generally replied in as vile and unsympathetic a manner as possible, as if he didn't have any sympathetic points or legitimate grievances at all and that he was just entirely a whiny douche. Whatever.

I don't really remember what I was going to say here, or what my larger point was. I guess I was going to say something about how debatable a question is it for how much, if at all, the messages of feminism can be blamed for all the horror that shy awkward males like Aaronson and I (and lots of others) went through during our adolescence, or whether all the blame lies entirely on our specific psychological hang ups? That seems to be a question going around, and my answer is, why can't it be a little bit of both? Sure, feminism is not entirely to blame for us wanting to castrate ourselves, but feminist-leaning cultural messages (about how most men are violent pigs, how male sexuality is gross, how women are essentially fragile angels who are "above" things like enjoying sex with men, and about how women are just all-around superior to men in multiple ways) certainly played a large part in how I perceived myself as a teenager, so maybe online feminists can do a bit more with empathizing with the experiences of self-hating male nerds? Because if there's one thing this drama shows it's that online feminists don't try particularly hard at empathizing with self-hating male nerds. I think ultimately most of the problem is on our psychology, but I think it's wrong-headed and bordering on victim-blamey to say that it's entirely our fault and that feminist cultural messages have no problems in this area at all... especially when such a huge pattern is easily detectable.

Anyway this is all rambly and stream-of-consciousness-ey and I'm tired and I will not double check this post before I click submit, so I'm not sure how much of what I just said I'll stand by later or how much of it I'll regret. I've just been wanting to say a bunch of stuff ever since this drama started.

[aels]

Sure, feminism is not entirely to blame for us wanting to castrate ourselves, but feminist-leaning cultural messages (about how most men are violent pigs, how male sexuality is gross, how women are essentially fragile angels who are "above" things like enjoying sex with men, and about how women are just all-around superior to men in multiple ways) certainly played a large part in how I perceived myself as a teenager, so maybe online feminists can do a bit more with empathizing with the experiences of self-hating male nerds? Because if there's one thing this drama shows it's that online feminists don't try particularly hard at empathizing with self-hating male nerds. I think ultimately most of the problem is on our psychology, but I think it's wrong-headed and bordering on victim-blamey to say that it's entirely our fault and that feminist cultural messages have no problems in this area at all... especially when such a huge pattern is easily detectable.

I don't know how to feel about this or what I want to say. I don't know what it's like to be a dude reading material that is critical of men (because I think it's important to say that while dude-bashing is not my feminism, there are people for whom it is their feminism, who move from structural criticism to 'all men are pigs' - pretty much all the 'feminist-leaning cultural messages' you cite are anathema to my feelings and the feelings of most feminists I know but it would be disingenuous to act like there aren't people who feel that way and express those opinions and I suspect the percentage is much, much higher if you hang out in radfem circles). But I guess I still don't entirely get how people of a privileged group can feel so beaten down by hearing people of an oppressed group express anger towards them. I get that no one likes being criticised, particularly when they feel that criticism is unfair or that it's being aimed incorrectly - I need to put on my big girl pants and confess that as a whitey, I sometimes have an instinctive reaction of 'Heeeeey!' when I read criticisms of white supremacy that don't sugar themselves to cater to my Sad White Feelings, and it's a reaction I have to internally slap myself for. But when I read, as I often read, blogs or tumblrs or whatever that feature posts that basically say 'Fuck white people', I don't feel victimised or damaged. I feel sad, and I feel a certain amount of guilt at my complicity in an oppressive structure and all the ways I fail to check my privilege, but it never transforms into an aggression towards POC activists or a feeling like POCs are deliberately trying to make me, whitey, hate myself. So I don't know how to understand it. I don't suppose that I am just fantastically mentally robust (hahahahaha, I am the opposite of that) so I don't get it. And I don't mean that in a judgey way.

I also fell, I guess, and I know this seems mean, that it's frustrating that the privileged group always makes issues about them. If I end up making a post somewhere about how X/Y/Z facet of patriarchy makes me feel angry, and frightened, and hurt, and dehumanised, it's galling as fuck to have someone come along and say 'Excuse me, but have you considered how your expression of pain makes me, a man, feel?' Because you're like, oh shit, I'm sorry that your systematic social privilege of thousands of years is so hard for you. And I know that's not a helpful response. Because dudes feel things too! And we should all be responsible and respectful towards other people's feelings. But I also feel like if a woman is talking about how she is oppressed on a social, economic, and political level, every day of her life, in every country in the world, sometimes to the point of actual physical harm, always to the point of emotional harm, it can be hard to have someone tell you that the real story is their reaction to your oppression. And that goes for any system of oppression, take whatever I said and apply it to discussions of race or sexuality or disability and I think it plays out the same.

I don't know. It's complicated as fuck. I SWEAR I DON'T HATE MEN.

[Anakin McFly]

EDIT: whoa wait I completely missed the first few replies on this thread. reading now.

@aels you're awesome, you know that.

I've been both on the giving and receiving end of male-bashing, and, well, it sucks, but in different ways. The problem is that a lot of male nerds in general grew up being heavily bullied and made fun of by their peers to the point of already hating themselves as a result. So when they hear criticisms of men, it ends up being more fuel for their self-loathing and the belief that they are worthless and that society would be better off and happier without them. Most also had few, if any, friends, such that for instance they missed out on a lot of the subtle 'we are awesomer' ego-stroking that goes on among members of privileged groups.

So that's where the beaten-down-ness comes from - not the criticism of privilege per se, but the fact that it builds on to existing, less-valid criticism against them and reinforces those negative messages they've internalised about themselves - they're not only stupid pathetic gross ugly losers whom no one will ever love, but they're also potential rapists whose presence is inherently hurting women and creeping them out, and their problems are irrelevant because nobody cares about their privileged lives.

I also fell, I guess, and I know this seems mean, that it's frustrating that the privileged group always makes issues about them

Nah, it's not mean, and it's often true. Though in these cases they don't see it that way, because they're not looking at it from a group standpoint but that of an individual. If, as an individual, they've basically had people being mean to them for most of their lives for reasons unrelated to oppression, speaking up might not seem like a privileged dude wanting things to be all about him, but rather someone who has suffered enough trying to finally stand up for himself. The problem is that he does this against an entirely wrong group of people who have suffered far more than he has.

But when I read, as I often read, blogs or tumblrs or whatever that feature posts that basically say 'Fuck white people', I don't feel victimised or damaged. I feel sad, and I feel a certain amount of guilt at my complicity in an oppressive structure and all the ways I fail to check my privilege, but it never transforms into an aggression towards POC activists or a feeling like POCs are deliberately trying to make me, whitey, hate myself.

I'm not sure where the difference necessarily lies, but while I react this way to some privileges I have, to others it just makes me hate myself. Maybe it's recognising the privilege in question - I fully recognise and am hyper-aware of male privilege, because it's something I didn't have until I transitioned, and the difference is stark. So when women talk about men being pigs or whatnot I can definitely understand where they're coming from, probably once experienced the same frustration and anger that gave rise to that sentiment, will gladly check my privilege, feel sad that the world is horrible to women, and do my best not to be that kind of man. But if people are criticising privileges that I might nominally have but never actually experienced as privilege (usually because of intersectionality reasons that make things complicated; things that are privileges in one part of the world aren't always, in another), then it rubs me a wholly different way and does contribute to that self-hate and resentment at the people doing the criticism.

Maybe that's something similar to what that guy was feeling. I know that when I think of 'male privilege', or more specifically 'white male privilege', there's a very specific sort of white guy that comes to mind- usually confident, outspoken, educated, good-looking, middle-class or richer, living in a white-dominated environment/country, fair amount of friends, and so on. And those are the kinds of white men who are responsible for the bulk of systematic oppression, and if they are angry at people pointing that out, then screw them. But it also means that those are the kind of men most people have in mind when they're going on their righteously-angry rants against the patriarchy. So if you've got some insecure, clinically depressed, unattractive dude too full of social anxiety to even leave his house to oppress people, and he hears women rant about how men are horrible to women when he hasn't even been within ten feet of a woman in his adult life, it probably comes across as unfair criticism.

I agree that privilege is a real thing that includes the privilege to not know you're privileged, but as devil's advocate I do understand the hurt at being ignored or even blamed in the global movements to make the world a better place. Women have feminism, non-white people have anti-racism, LGBT people have gay and trans -rights, etc, and for any individual within that group experiencing personal problems - even if something completely unrelated to oppression, like maybe your dog died and you're sad - there's that reminder that nameless strangers out there care about you, and are actively fighting to make your life better. There isn't that equivalent for straight white cis men. And if they happen to be in a shitty place in life with people considering their problems laughable, it can suck, because they fail to understand that their problems are the result of things other than their race or gender.

[Anakin McFly]

+1 everything Derived Absurdity said. But:

Because if there's one thing this drama shows it's that online feminists don't try particularly hard at empathizing with self-hating male nerds.

I'd take the 'male' out of that, because it then implies that oppressed groups should try harder to empathise with the oppressors, which isn't true and isn't strictly what's happening here.

Society at large does not empathise with self-hating socially awkward unattractive nerds. They're one of the last few groups it's still acceptable to make fun of, and practically nobody cares. Make a misogynist joke, huge outrage. As there should be. Same with racist jokes and so on. But make fun of awkward nerds - male or female, but if they're female there's usually feminist backlash - and most people just laugh, and it makes you hate yourself.

[aels]

I've missed your thoughtful responses, Anakin You raise some really good points that I am going to re-read when I am not dying of menstruation (because I am a walking cliché).

[Anakin McFly]

aww.

but what I consider to be a really crucial factor in why these shy, awkward, self-loathing guys end up hating feminism is, well, patriarchy. Because the world is full of shy, awkward, self-loathing women who can't get boyfriends. I know them. I've *been* them

yesssss.

I have to believe that this is down to differences in how men and women are socialised to view themselves and the world.

That, and also differences in sex drive. The standard male sex drive is insane, and it makes it a lot harder to go "welp nobody loves me so I guess I'll just live alone and get a cat" when your body is constantly going "HAVE SEX NOWWWW."

In my experience, women are much more likely to turn their negative feelings inwards. Instead of 'Nice girls only want to date handsome men, what a bunch of superficial whores', it's 'Nice guys only want to date pretty girls, I must be a fat, ugly piece of shit'.

Yes!

[Anakin McFly]

I love this response: http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penn ... nce-empire; extract:

"Hi there, shy, nerdy boys. Your suffering was and is real. I really fucking hope that it got better, or at least is getting better, At the same time, I want you to understand that that very real suffering does not cancel out male privilege, or make it somehow alright. Privilege doesn't mean you don't suffer, which, I know, totally blows.

... Scott, imagine what it's like to have all the problems you had and then putting up with structural misogyny on top of that. Or how about a triple whammy: you have to go through your entire school years again but this time you're a lonely nerd who also faces sexism and racism. This is why Silicon Valley is fucked up. Because it's built and run by some of the most privileged people in the world who are convinced that they are among the least. People whose received trauma makes them disinclined to listen to pleas from people whose trauma was compounded by structural oppression. People who don't want to hear that there is anyone more oppressed than them, who definitely don't want to hear that maybe women and people of colour had to go through the hell of nerd puberty as well, because they haven't recovered from their own appalling nerdolescence. People who definitely don't want to hear that, smart as they are, there might be basic things about society that they haven't understood, because they have been prevented from understanding by the very forces that caused them such pain as children."

--

also, @DA-

And my story also parallels his in that the biggest psychological step I took in building my own confidence and self-esteem and giving myself some mental peace was by "rejecting" many aspects of what I perceived to be feminism - that I don't need to be on constant lookout for "microaggressions" or hidden entitlement or secret sexism, that I don't need to feel deeply ashamed for feeling sexual thoughts, that I don't need to treat women with exaggerated care and respect to show how I'm not a misogynist, etc. And it was only then when I was finally able to have some peace of mind and like myself a little bit more.

I relate to this a lot. But on hindsight, it wasn't so much "rejecting feminism" as it was rejecting the toxic, OCD perfectionist adherence to my interpretation of radical feminism that involved falling into massive guilt trips and constantly and disproportionately punishing myself for the tiniest of microaggressions that nobody else but me even noticed, let alone was offended by. People were way, way, way more forgiving of me than I (or the internet) was of myself; most of the time they didn't even understand wtf I was apologising for.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

I think many nerds think/thought the feminist movement would encourage more women to initiate first date invitations (this is something I used to think). Due to their own experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case and rather than examine their own issues they place blame on feminists.

I suppose in a warped way, that could be argued to be the fault of feminism. Really though, it's just an excuse to blame someone/something other than themselves.

[Dr_Liszt]

I think many nerds think/thought the feminist movement would encourage more women to initiate first date invitations (this is something I used to think). Due to their own experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case and rather than examine their own issues they place blame on feminists.

I suppose in a warped way, that could be argued to be the fault of feminism. Really though, it's just an excuse to blame someone/something other than themselves.

Yeah that's pretty much it. If you can't socialize with people is because you can't socialize with people. But luckily for all social skills is something you can acquire.

I mean I'm a big time loser and I do find women extremely hard to socialize with. And I'm a woman, but I know the problem is with myself. I do find it hard to sympathize too because as I said, social skills is something you can learn and practice. It's not something that requires a whole systematic oppression change. But I've been there too, I'm still there, it's hard.

[phe_de]

Every awkward, shy, nerdy guy has the right to feel as they do. As long as they don't hurt others.

And Scott Aaronson obviously did the right thing.
It's true that at the beginning of his story, he comes over like one of these incel whiners who can't get a date. But he later finds a solution: He improves himself, by getting good at what he does, and eventually finds a partner.

Better than becoming a terrorist like Elliott Rodger.

In my opinion, a terrorist's or totalitarists's mindset often can be summed up like this:
- Life is unfair to me.
- I am a loser at life.
BUT
- This is not my fault. It's the fault of feminism/capitalism/racism/<oppression du jour>.
- I am going to punish those whose fault it is, and those who benefit from the system.

Non-terrorists, on the other hand, realize that if they are losers at life, change for the better starts with themselves.

And then we can also see if feminism/capitalism/racism/<oppression du jour> are real or imagined. Because if a person constantly gets thrown back despite working hard, then there is a real discrimination going on.

In the case of Scott Aaronson, there was obviously no real discrimination from feminists. He managed to be successful. Good for him.

[Anakin McFly]

I don't think it's an either/or thing - it's not other people's fault, but it's not entirely their fault either. Some people get luckier than others in the gene pool both with looks and easy adaptation of social skills and mental health and other things, and I'm uncomfortable with how this ends up implying that those who got a better start in life are somehow better than those who didn't.

It takes a lot more effort for someone with poor social ability to learn to socialize with others, vs someone for whom it comes naturally. It's always been very, very hard for me, despite trying very much to learn, reading up things on social skills and so on, or doing things like finding a spot to sit and watch people and take notes on how 'normal' people act, which I don't see others doing- yet they manage so much better, almost effortlessly. While I know not to blame the world, it's not helpful or healthy to blame myself either, because I'm not any more at fault for my natural weaknesses, and that self-hate only makes matters worse.

[phe_de]

I don't think it's an either/or thing - it's not other people's fault, but it's not entirely their fault either. Some people get luckier than others in the gene pool both with looks and easy adaptation of social skills and mental health and other things, and I'm uncomfortable with how this ends up implying that those who got a better start in life are somehow better than those who didn't.

But on the other hand, those who were not so "lucky" in the genepool when it comes to adaptation of social skills have another option: Let go of their wishes.
As for me, I am probably also not too extroverted socially; but I was also never very interested in it. As of today, I am 47 years old and have never been in a romantic or sexual relationship with anybody else.

However, when I was a teenager, I wanted to become a race driver; despite being as athletic as a bag of potatoes.
So in order to pursue that dream, I would have had two options: Work really, really hard to improve my athletic skills (which would have been an uphill battle); or letting go of that wish. I chose the latter, and it worked. Today I don't even own a car.

In the fable world, the fox is usually depicted as intelligent or smart. So when confronted with grapes that were out of reach, he eventually stopped wanting them. In his case, it was probably a good decision.

[Anakin McFly]

That's not really a good approach to life, though. If we all just gave up and stopped trying anytime something seemed too hard... we wouldn't accomplish anything worthwhile.

[phe_de]

If we all just gave up and stopped trying anytime something seemed too hard... we wouldn't accomplish anything worthwhile.

This would depend on what you consider "worthwhile".

[Dr_Liszt]

That's not really a good approach to life, though. If we all just gave up and stopped trying anytime something seemed too hard... we wouldn't accomplish anything worthwhile.

Even if you don't talk to people, saying simple stuff like "Good Morning, Excuse me, Good Evening..." is a good way to start. I don't talk too much to people but I tend to smile and say "hi!" to people, even if I don't say anything else at all,instead of ignoring them, tends to make people want to approach you. That's how I made friends with my classmates. Some anyway, the people who ignored me, just get ignored back.

But I still have problems with people that to me are so irrational. I had an incident in the parking lot with one guard yesterday that made me wonder what my problem is. And I don't get it, it's like I'm a magnet for people to be horrible. So I don't know, really. People are weird.

[Islandmur]

Once I made the same claim " I attract horrible people" until one day a friend of mine told me I was intimidating, I asked why would she say that? She then explained to me how I had this expression or made this face when I talked to people when I was either stressed, nervous, or just plain mad... I didn't even know that while my words were saying one thing my face and expression were saying something else. I had to work on myself to put a smile on or soften my face on purpose while speaking (even on the phone) until it became somewhat natural to me.

I've come to realize, yes there are horrible people in the world but the majority of them are just normal folks and whatever problems we encounter are often our own projections unto others. We expect people to act a certain way and we interpret what happens through that. Example "people are ignoring me" are they? or are they just going on about their own personal stuff? Are we making any efforts at all to be approachable or expecting them to just walk up to us and thus laying the burden of the first move on people whom we don't even know if they are that socially extroverted? Maybe they think (per our attitude) that we just want to be alone? That we don't like them!? What if someone started to approach us and our face goes into panic mode? and they see that and just keep on walking? What if when they do approach us we are so anxious and fidgety they see how uncomfortable we are and think they are the ones doing that so never return?

We may suffer from being introverted and socially awkward, but it's still up to us to make the changes (however we can, small steps by small steps) that will (if it bothers us) change things around us. When we are children I think it's our parents place to make us less socially awkward from wardrobe to organizing or putting us in social interactions within our interests so we meet others like us.

[Cassius Clay]

I don't think feminists have any responsibility to center men's feelings. That's absurd.

That's not to say that their feelings are completely illegitimate(though, I suspect many of their painful feelings are rooted in not getting what they've been taught their entitled too...toxic masculinity and all that jazz)....but other things should be held responsible, including patriarchy itself....it should not be placed at the feet of feminism.

And this is just like racism and white guilt.

I was reading some comments in the 'Colors of the Wind' video I posted on the disney music thread. And I guess there had been people talking about white genocidal supremacy...and the fact that white supremacy has pretty much fucked over every other race/group/ethnicity. Then this white person went into a self-pitying rant. Talking about "ok people, I get it..white people have destroyed everything...and I'm white so I must be a terrible person...we fucked up the world and we're terrible. I just wish we could all get along. I guess I'm gonna go kill myself now." Well, something along those lines. I just find it so sickeningly narcissistic. This person might have legitimate issues..maybe depression..maybe something else. And their feelings are "real"...but that should never be the responsibility of people talking about white supremacy. He/she was basically asking everyone to shut up...and basically threatened to kill herself because of the conversation. And her potential suicide is now placed at the feet of those who name and resist white supremacy....like they need that additional responsibility. Jesus. It's like some kind of narcissistic emotional terrorism or something.

[Dr_Liszt]

Once I made the same claim " I attract horrible people" until one day a friend of mine told me I was intimidating, I asked why would she say that? She then explained to me how I had this expression or made this face when I talked to people when I was either stressed, nervous, or just plain mad... I didn't even know that while my words were saying one thing my face and expression were saying something else. I had to work on myself to put a smile on or soften my face on purpose while speaking (even on the phone) until it became somewhat natural to me.

I've come to realize, yes there are horrible people in the world but the majority of them are just normal folks and whatever problems we encounter are often our own projections unto others. We expect people to act a certain way and we interpret what happens through that. Example "people are ignoring me" are they? or are they just going on about their own personal stuff? Are we making any efforts at all to be approachable or expecting them to just walk up to us and thus laying the burden of the first move on people whom we don't even know if they are that socially extroverted? Maybe they think (per our attitude) that we just want to be alone? That we don't like them!? What if someone started to approach us and our face goes into panic mode? and they see that and just keep on walking? What if when they do approach us we are so anxious and fidgety they see how uncomfortable we are and think they are the ones doing that so never return?

We may suffer from being introverted and socially awkward, but it's still up to us to make the changes (however we can, small steps by small steps) that will (if it bothers us) change things around us. When we are children I think it's our parents place to make us less socially awkward from wardrobe to organizing or putting us in social interactions within our interests so we meet others like us.

I actually liked this post. I did ask one of my friends what was wrong with me and he told me it was because I'm too good, that people tend to like people who are bitchy and the moment I start doing that people will respect me and love me. Of course advice like that is frustrating for me because ANY kind of confrontation makes me anxious and situations like that give me panic attacks or I start crying.

But I do understand I make people awkward with my awkwardness sometimes and it's something I have to work on. And I do understand sometimes I project things that aren't real to other people.

[Anakin McFly]

I don't think feminists have any responsibility to center men's feelings. That's absurd.

I agree.

That's not to say that their feelings are completely illegitimate(though, I suspect many of their painful feelings are rooted in not getting what they've been taught their entitled too...toxic masculinity and all that jazz)....but other things should be held responsible, including patriarchy itself....it should not be placed at the feet of feminism.

I agree, though I don't think it's primarily about entitlement. There's how many nerds (and, well, especially people who look like Aaronson) are generally looked on as unattractive, and attractiveness, physical or otherwise, does carry a lot of weight in society. Attractive people get treated better, are more likely to be promoted, get famous, get laid, get reduced sentences, get forgiven for wrongdoing, hold positions of authority, and so on. It's a privilege in itself that translates significantly to many benefits in life, and while there's some pushback against this when it comes to women - "all women are beautiful" etc - because it primarily and far more severely affects women, there's nothing similar for unattractive men, who in many cases are still objects of ridicule. Not because they are men and feminists are oppressing them, as Aaronson wrongly thinks, but because they're a lesser type of man/human that the patriarchy denigrates and mocks, and he's living in a society that places high value on physical and social traits that he doesn't have.

I just find it so sickeningly narcissistic.

I read that rant as frustrated despair, interpreting what they were told back at the ones who said it, and demanding to know what they were expected to do in that case. Maybe entitlement (i.e. expecting other people to tell them what to do), but not narcissism. It reeks of low self-esteem, if anything. Which can admittedly lead to narcissistic behaviour. A white person who is constantly bombarded with various messages of how white people are evil and responsible for all the wrong in the world (and those messages do exist amidst the ones that do actual criticism), probably takes from that the message that white people should die to make everybody happier. I mean, there are blogs called things like killallwhitemen, which isn't subtle. A more mature white person would react to that understanding that it's the expression of anger and frustration at institutionalised racism, not an actual death threat, and start listening and finding out ways they can be an ally. But we're talking about YouTube, which is mostly angsty teenagers of all races/genders/etc with no sense of nuance.

That rant was a challenge, to which there are two possible responses:

- "yes, you should kill yourself." -> in which case if the person does, the fault is solely on the person/people who said that, not the entire civil rights movement
- "no, but this is what you as a white person can do to help / not make things worse." -> which is probably what they were looking for.

A narcissistic racist would have never made that rant; not with the emphasis on 'I', which is the giveaway. If it had been "yeah, yeah, white people are terrible and we should all kill ourselves", that's one thing, and they're being self-centred jerks, but they made the leap from "white people are terrible" to "I should kill myself". What reason would they have to consider their own life inherently lesser and more worthy of death than that of other terrible white people? There's other stuff going on here, and if the threat was genuine, chances are they were already suicidal for other reasons.

I also often wonder what white people / any privileged group can do, given that practically anything they do has so many opportunities for messing things up further. In which case it would seem best if they didn't do anything, but that doesn't seem right either, because allies are important. But I often get similarly frustrated and could have easily made that same rant in a different context, so I understand where they're coming from, and narcissism doesn't have anything to do with it.

There is practically no way to be a Good White Person (there was in fact a really good article on this over at Jezebel which I liked a lot; I think you linked it on the old forums?). Sure, they could be empathetic and self-reflective and understanding and seek to listen and empower rather than jump to White Saviour mode, being aware of their privilege and actively working to challenge their own biases and that of others without being obnoxious and making things worse, keeping their own personal issues and trauma and suffering completely out of the mix without having that taint their views; but that's honestly expecting too much of 95% of humanity, of any race. I barely manage to do that at any time, and I have no reason to expect the same of anyone else. And going "you failed to reach this near-impossible ideal, therefore you are a terrible person" is extremely frustrating; because if everything you try to do will always be wrong and hurt people, killing oneself becomes the only logical course of action.

[Anakin McFly]

as a side note, I wish people like Aaronson (and most of the internet) understood that privilege =/= no suffering. There are incredibly privileged people who can still suffer greatly. Meanwhile I lack most of the basic social privileges, but my life is pretty okay. I'm sure I'm suffering way less than some homeless straight white cis guy currently freezing on a street somewhere, and am enjoying a better quality of life, even though numerically speaking he has more privileges than me, and even though someone in my demographic is statistically way more likely to be freezing on a street than he is.

And if we can recognise that a more-privileged individual might be suffering (perhaps more than us), how can we express sympathy for that, without denying his privileged status? Which is probably the crux of the question here and in many other places.


EDIT: I might be leaving this discussion; I just spent over an hour of office time writing the previous reply, and that's not good. >_> Feel free to carry on with out me, or just let it be. I might come back here at some point, but for the sake of my work I probably shouldn't.

[Cassius Clay]

Anakin, I think you are being far too charitable to this attitude. And your styling of the issue as being so terribly difficult for white people is misguided. It is not difficult at all. You are making excuses for terrible, narcissistic behavior. As a male, it is not difficult at all to not hijack feminist conversations and make it about my feelings. I know I don't need to take it personally because it's not about me(even though I must consider my role in all of it), and I generally don't feel guilt because there is no reason to carry the weight of all of patriarchy on my shoulders. Even if I'm being criticized for something directly, in addressing it, the priority should never be about how I can make myself feel better about myself...instead of what I can do to actually help improve the lives and safety of women. The former is a narcissistic attitude that is fairly common in these interactions...and it is frequently at odds with the latter. This self-centered attitude is a major obstacle that needs to be exposed...not something to be a sort of apologist for as being too hard to avoid. And it's not a youth thing...it's a pervasive cultural problem that is a part of the oppressive dynamic. It's the reason people react to things unnecessarily defensively...the reason men or white people view women or black folks fighting for equality as an attack on them(even during the holidays, some Christians view respect for other religions as a "war on Christmas")...it's what is at the heart of all those "not all men".."not all white people" impulses...it's the reason people talk over and dismiss people talking about oppression...because they would rather dismiss oppression than to deal with potentially uncomfortable feelings about themselves that they don't even need to have in the first place...it's the reason so many white people seem to think that racism means "someone making you feel bad about your race"...it's the reason white people flood the message boards of movies dealing with slavery or civil rights to preemptively disparage and complain that the movie shouldn't be made...because they somehow perceive the telling of important stories of black experiences as some kind of attack on their good whiteness....it's the reason they make so many white savior movies that center white humanity in stories of black struggle...for white people's narcissistic feelings...so that white people can have a central white person they can relate to as good...because white people care more about being a "good white person" than actually appreciating the experiences, stories, and humanity of black characters...because white people care more about being perceived as not being racist, than actually addressing racism...this is why there will not be a movie about the Haitian revolution or Nat Turner for a long time...and it's the reason the article on "good white people", that addresses this point pretty clearly, is unsurprisingly met with a bunch of high-rated comments from white people that care more about their own sense of feeling "good" about themselves than actually comprehending/addressing the point responsibly(There are power dynamics at play that need to be addressed...where whites have been socialized to see their feelings as more important than black humanity). And this is the difference between empathy and guilt.

Edit: And we have to understand that part of the problem is the inverse relationship between white humanity and black humanity. Realize that, historically, white humanity has been dependent on the denigration of black humanity. And this has been passed down through the culture for centuries. When you are socialized to believe you are more worthy/valuable than a people you denigrate, you will perceive an affirmation of the humanity of those denigrated as an attack on your own humanity/goodness/value. Because of that relationship, there doesn't even need to be direct attack on your humanity...affirming the humanity of the denigrated is enough for it to be perceived as a threat to you(In much of the same way we might see an abuser being pained by seeing his victim flourish. Because his self-worth came from denigrating his victim). We see men(who have been socialized to believe they are more valuable than women) behaving the same way when women talk about their issues...just insane, reactionary, self-centered non-sequitors coming from them. This is why men scream "what about the menz" when women talk about gender inequality...and why a lot of white people have trouble centering black lives during conversations and protests around police violence(changing "black lives matter" to "all lives matter"). When part of your sense of worth/value is based on an unjust, denigrating lie...you will perceive correction of this lie as a threat. And many white people cannot stomach the fact that their dependence on this potential, oppressive lie, for their sense of virtue, ironically challenges their own humanity further...according to their own values. It's much easier to keep believing this lie(or just not honestly addressing this deep belief). So, we must not make excuses for this kind of behavior as being somehow understandable or relatable...or as being just low self-esteem or something. There's a lot more going on than that.

[Cassius Clay]

And I feel the need to make it clear that I don't believe there is something inherently wrong with wanting to feel good about yourself. It's the context of I take issue with. This is a ridiculous/extreme example, but I'm basically saying there is nothing wrong with liking to look at yourself in the mirror(or what not), but if you're admiring your reflection while someone is dying on the floor, you might have a problem. And I can appreciate the fact that having low self-esteem can often make it difficult to see past yourself...but there are certain contexts where low self-esteem isn't a good enough excuse. Where it goes beyond confidence issues to destructive narcissism. If the person is dying on the floor, you admiring yourself in the mirror because you have low self-esteem is inexcusable. As far as I'm concerned, white folks derailing racism talks to center their poor little feelings is one of those inexcusable contexts. There are many people with debilitating self-esteem issues that have enough empathy for others for them to not inappropriately center their own needs/feelings in certain contexts.

[Anakin McFly]

I agree with your points, but it's not what I was addressing at the OP - the fact that this isn't a 'what about the menz' issue, even though it's been wrongly portrayed as such by the people involved on both sides.

My concern is for the almost universal, unchallenged denigration and mockery of people (male or female) deemed socially inept, awkward, unattractive etc and the kind of self-loathing this inevitably generates. As men with male privilege, Aaronson et al thought that this was the result of feminists being mean to them and that this kind of thing never happens to women - which is patently untrue, and derailing and self-centred etc. So, any criticism to that effect I'm totally in agreement with.

But that doesn't change the fact that 'nerds' are looked down on as inferior humans and suitable butt of jokes. It's not on the level of institutional oppression, sure. But I've been on the receiving end of that for many years, and it still hurts a lot - in some ways more, because while institutional oppression affects whole communities, someone going "lol you're such a loser" makes it personal. It's easier to say that sexism and racism are wrong than it is to say that someone is wrong when they tell you that no one will ever love you. One's race or gender or privilege does not change that pain. All it might change is the expression of that pain. I've seen almost the exact same anger and frustration in a lesbian friend and in a local (Asian) gay friend (ranting instead about guys who won't sleep with him), both of whom are on the autistic spectrum and were bullied a lot for being 'weird' and nerdy and unattractive - more so than for being gay. So this can't be just a male privilege 'what about the menz' thing, for the simple fact that it's not a sentiment that's limited to men complaining about women.

I strongly disagree with Aaronson that feminists should care more about men's feelings. But I agree with him that there's something wrong in how society treats those deemed socially unworthy because of how they look or act (as in mannerisms, not behaviour) or because they're socially clueless. I've been there and it sucks. And there's so much intense hatred and self-loathing and resentment in that subculture - across all races and genders - that I wish someone would do something to help. I wish I could help. But I don't know how to, apart from those I'm friends with. And so often I instead just further perpetuate that same system by avoiding the 'weird' people who seem mentally off or just not-normal or incredibly awkward or too nerdy, because they make me uncomfortable. (One of them is this gay guy whom I think might have a crush on me. He tries very hard to talk to people and make friends, but he creeps me out, as well as others. But I've seen his facebook, and it's so full of hate and anger. And I'm probably just making it worse.)

--

Regarding the YouTube comment and the narcissism, I agree with your broader points about privileged groups centring their feelings and the white saviour complex, but I don't think this particular outburst was just down to that, or to low self esteem for that matter. It's an expression of helplessness in the face of oppression - in this case other people's oppression. What I read from that is: they care, but they have no idea what to do, and they're mad at people constantly telling them that they're the problem without giving them any idea how to fix it. It's not just a power dynamics thing, because I've seen that exact same reaction in situations divorced from that: for instance parents scolding and criticising their kids and their kids eventually breaking and yelling, "What do you want me to do, kill myself?"

In the context of racial conflict, that sentiment ends up paralleling greater narratives of privileged people making stuff about them, but the initial origin of that feeling is much more individual and unrelated to that. The question remains: what are white people / men etc supposed to do? Because there are so many conflicting and sometimes contradicting answers to that question (including "kill yourself" or "go f*** yourself"), depending on which person in the marginalised group you ask, and it can be maddening if you get criticised regardless of who you listen to. And sure, perhaps they should be more mature and insightful and intelligent and selfless and aware to learn and try to figure out the right thing to do; but most humans aren't at that level, those who are can sometimes still get it wrong, and there's no good reason to expect privileged people to be any better at being good humans.

[phe_de]

But that doesn't change the fact that 'nerds' are looked down on as inferior humans and suitable butt of jokes. It's not on the level of institutional oppression, sure. But I've been on the receiving end of that for many years, and it still hurts a lot - in some ways more, because while institutional oppression affects whole communities, someone going "lol you're such a loser" makes it personal.

(...)

But I agree with him that there's something wrong in how society treats those deemed socially unworthy because of how they look or act (as in mannerisms, not behaviour) or because they're socially clueless. I've been there and it sucks. And there's so much intense hatred and self-loathing and resentment in that subculture - across all races and genders - that I wish someone would do something to help. I wish I could help.

The solution is the one Aaronson provided: Find something you enjoy doing, and become good at it.
Your problem, I think, is that you have low self esteem when it comes to selecting an activity you are good at. You said in a previous post that if we stopped trying when things got too hard, we would never accomplish anything worthwhile. But you never said what you consider worthwhile. And this, I believe, is the problem.

I like utilitarism, so any activity that creates happiness without creating suffering is worthwhile. So if you find something you enjoy doing and that does not involve making other people suffer, then this activity is worthwhile. Because it makes at least one person feel good: You.

And the fact that you say that if you don't work hard for it, it's not worthwhile, makes me suspect that this is not a type of "worthwhile" you defined, but more what you think a large portion of society deems "worthwhile". Like finding a partner, getting a job that generates a six-digit salary, building a house, yadda yadda yadda... And maybe this is also what lots of nerds suffer from: They believe that because a large portion of not socially awkward people considers these goals "worthwhile", they have to consider them "worthwhile" as well. Guess what: They don't.

So I repeat the above advice again: Find something you enjoy doing, and where you have a realistic chance of being good. Usually ability and enjoyment for an activity are positively correlated.

[Anakin McFly]

The solution is the one Aaronson provided: Find something you enjoy doing, and become good at it.

I've been doing that - mostly writing, where I've sold a few stories professionally since I was 17. I've also been playing keyboards in my church band and doing my own music compositions, and improving my web development skills at work, so all that helps. My life is generally a lot better these days; in my post I was speaking more of past experience rather than present circumstances. But stuff like childhood bullying can be really hard to get over even though it's been more than a decade, plus the constant inner criticism that I'm not good enough as a human. There's also that general social awkwardness, where even though I've improved a lot (and have a social life now!) I haven't yet reached the level most people are at. And it sucks to know that it's the result of a lot of hard work - observing people, reading about people, talking to people, trying to understand/empathise with people, watching a lot of movies and paying attention to dialogue/body language and things - when this stuff comes naturally and effortlessly to so many others.
My psych says I'm almost definitely on the autistic spectrum (as are a lot of nerds I know), so a lot of social things and rules of human behaviour - reading expressions, appropriate eye contact, personal boundaries, knowing when someone is joking, knowing how to respond when someone is upset, knowing how someone feels - that are instinctual to others I had to learn from scratch. So I can understand when others who are weak in that area don't put in that effort, because it's exhausting and many times I just want to stop and go be a hermit somewhere. But I've since learnt enough to be a functional human and make (and keep) friends IRL, so I'm proud of that at least. It's an ongoing journey.

And the fact that you say that if you don't work hard for it, it's not worthwhile, makes me suspect that this is not a type of "worthwhile" you defined, but more what you think a large portion of society deems "worthwhile"

Nah, not really. I was using the term in a more general sense, depending on what an individual person considered worth doing. I don't consider a lot of those things mentioned as being that worthwhile. I like the idea of living a really simple minimalist life (but comfortable, not ascetic), with just enough to get by, and hopefully leave the world a better place.