The Pitters' Place

I thought this would perhaps make more of the news than it did...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34969424

It's a bit of a weird story. I'm thinking that's it got to just be one or two sick bastards that basically just have an issue with women, as they only seem to have given them to women (and a man would probably be much more likely to be violent towards them).

Anyway - I thought you'd maybe find it interesting...

This might be cliche, but can you appreciate just how deeply a person must hate themselves in order to put that much effort into mean-spirited trolling for their own "amusement"? It's really sad and funny at the same time.

In fact, I've been realizing lately how most bigotry is really, on multiple levels, a projection of one's own self-hatred. And how it mirror the theories about narcissistic personality disorder.

I think most trolls trolls just because they're assholes.

And assholes are people who can't handle their own self-loathing and choose to take it out on other people.

It's like the classic case of the school bully that acts like that 'cause he/she gets bullied at home.

i don't know of any evidence that bullies and trolls loathe themselves. The science generally shows that they have high self-esteem.

I think the bully who bullies because (s)he gets bullied at home shows up in movies and tv shows far, far more than (s)he shows up in real life. Most bullies bully simply because they like it.

I think this idea that bullies secretly hate themselves is propagated mostly because it helps their victims feel better about their circumstances. . . as well as because people wanting things to be more complex and sympathetic than they really are.

Fair enough - I've only read the front page on ael's link - and I don't think it's too much of a surprise that trolls exhibit those traits... however, it doesn't discuss the underlying motivation/reason. Are they that way because of insecurities/bullying themselves or are they just plain "bad" people who enjoy being a prick?

I suspect the answers to that will be many and varied...

It depends on how you define the "self" in self-esteem. Generally speaking, narcissists rely on a false sense of self that is typically built on poor foundation (a fragile house of cards). That's why they have to work so hard to maintain this self by putting other people down. It's kinda like how you can have a big ego while being deeply insecure. They're like vampires...their superficial "high self-esteem" is dependent on constantly putting others down... they're parasites. This dynamic is present on a cultural level with things like white supremacy and male fragility.

And it's not something that necessarily invokes sympathy for that person because they lack the capacity for real self-reflection (or don't want to/are never held accountable)...because lots of people are treated like shit and manage to not take it out on other people. And, yes, it sounds like a cheesy cliche people believe to feel better about themselves, but there's a lot more truth to it than you realize.

I guess. Bullies and trolls might have to prop up their own self-esteem by putting down other people, that makes sense, but that still doesn't equate to them loathing themselves.

Cassius Clay wrote:It depends on how you define the "self" in self-esteem. Generally speaking, narcissists rely on a false sense of self that is typically built on poor foundation (a fragile house of cards). That's why they have to work so hard to maintain this self by putting other people down. It's kinda like how you can have a big ego while being deeply insecure. They're like vampires...their superficial "high self-esteem" is dependent on constantly putting others down... they're parasites. This dynamic is present on a cultural level with things like white supremacy and male fragility.

And it's not something that necessarily invokes sympathy for that person because they lack the capacity for real self-reflection (or don't want to/are never held accountable)...because lots of people are treated like shit and manage to not take it out on other people. And, yes, it sounds like a cheesy cliche people believe to feel better about themselves, but there's a lot more truth to it than you realize.

The one true narcissist I know has an extremely fragile and artificial sense of self-esteem. I suspect that if you were to hit their weak points, they would collapse in quite spectacular fashion. Actually, the two people in my life who have treated me the worst have been deeply unhappy people with serious self-esteem issues and who basically only felt good about themselves by making other people unhappy. That said, while I do believe that genuinely happy and well-adjusted people don't tend to treat other people badly, I also think that a decent proportion of trolls, bullies, or otherwise total shitheads are doing it out of a basic lack of empathy rather than as a reaction to personal pain or damage.

Derived Absurdity wrote:I guess. Bullies and trolls might have to prop up their own self-esteem by putting down other people, that makes sense, but that still doesn't equate to them loathing themselves.

It's intuitively obvious to me that they loath themselves deep down. The fact that they must work so hard to maintain their self-esteem(especially by trying to put other's down) implies that they despise their "true" selves.

aels wrote:

Cassius Clay wrote:It depends on how you define the "self" in self-esteem. Generally speaking, narcissists rely on a false sense of self that is typically built on poor foundation (a fragile house of cards). That's why they have to work so hard to maintain this self by putting other people down. It's kinda like how you can have a big ego while being deeply insecure. They're like vampires...their superficial "high self-esteem" is dependent on constantly putting others down... they're parasites. This dynamic is present on a cultural level with things like white supremacy and male fragility.

And it's not something that necessarily invokes sympathy for that person because they lack the capacity for real self-reflection (or don't want to/are never held accountable)...because lots of people are treated like shit and manage to not take it out on other people. And, yes, it sounds like a cheesy cliche people believe to feel better about themselves, but there's a lot more truth to it than you realize.

The one true narcissist I know has an extremely fragile and artificial sense of self-esteem. I suspect that if you were to hit their weak points, they would collapse in quite spectacular fashion. Actually, the two people in my life who have treated me the worst have been deeply unhappy people with serious self-esteem issues and who basically only felt good about themselves by making other people unhappy. That said, while I do believe that genuinely happy and well-adjusted people don't tend to treat other people badly, I also think that a decent proportion of trolls, bullies, or otherwise total shitheads are doing it out of a basic lack of empathy rather than as a reaction to personal pain or damage.

That may be true, but I don't believe lack of empathy alone motivates that kind of destructive action. I think it's lack of empathy combined with something else. There is a need/desire being met there. 'Cause they are deliberately going out of their way to be assholes.

And I wouldn't put it as sympathetically as a "reaction to personal pain/damage" because that to me implies that it's a reasonable reaction. It's might be a reaction, but it's not a reasonable one. Though, to clarify, I do also agree that it's not necessarily always a reaction to trauma that makes assholes what they are. They could internalize that fucked up abusive framework in other ways, but I do think the dynamic of the false self/insecure self would still apply to such people.

^what Cassius said

When it comes to fat-shaming of women (not men) in particular, there's also a definite objectification aspect there. I was on an IMDb thread with people who were complaining about fat actresses, saying that nobody wants to see ugly women and Hollywood should stop hiring fat actresses because it's "natural" and "biological" for "heterosexual men" to want to look at "beautiful women". Plus the usual spiel on how fat women were lazy and disgusting and had no self-control etc and weren't good role models. But for some reason they didn't think the same of fat male actors and said they were fine with them, presumably because men aren't in movies to be hot.

I guess that all factors mentioned by Cassius and Anakin may be valid.

When I read about this, I thought: Some people are so insecure that they need to find someone they perceive to be "below" them. For men who are misogynist, it's women. The objectification may also play a part.

Maybe Fran Hayden summed it up; also on how to react.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as- ... 56956.html

EDIT: This reminded me of this thread.
http://forum.pittersplace.com/forum/vie ... ?f=2&t=922

I'm willing to bet that in many of these cases, the criticism is coming from people who are/were fat themselves.

At the same time, I think we shouldn't just dismiss the often real reaction of disgust that people feel towards those we deem unattractive - it's something that needs to be brought out into the open and talked about. Being forced to deny it, or insist that people find beautiful something they do not, can lead to all these underhanded cruelty. I do sometimes reflexively have fat-shaming thoughts when I see fat people, including friends I love very much. I'm not proud of it. But at the same time I recognize them for what they are, and how they are often irrational and selfish, and that people's worth cannot be judged by their weight, and seek to challenge that prejudice.

I cannot magically find unattractive people attractive. But I can still treat them with the same dignity and respect due every human, knowing that something as arbitrary as my weight does not make me any better than them.

I wouldn't put it as "being forced to deny" their true feelings...or being insisted to find something "beautiful" when they don't. This framing is fundamentally wrong...and comes across as misguidedly sympathetic.

My two cents...

I really don't give a shit what people look like. And if someone's overweight that's (99.9% of the time) their concern. It can cause them health issues so generally I would never advocate anyone chooses to become overweight but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to give them a hard time for being that way.

I also am very well aware that sometimes people become overweight through no fault of their own. Although I am a little cynical about the frequency with which this excuse is trotted out at times.

The one time I will confess to getting (perhaps unfairly) annoyed with overweight people is when you get crammed into airline seats next to someone who spills over into your seat. And you're stuck there for the next two/three/four hours (or whatever) with them squashed up against you in your space. Now perhaps the airlines are at fault for not making the seats bigger. But I don't blame the airlines - if they made the seats bigger they'd have to charge more. I blame the person that's going to make my journey very uncomfortable. And given the frequency and the anti-social hours I fly I want to be able to get comfy and sleep or work.

If that makes me a bad person I can probably live with that.

But outside a plane - I have no issue with people being any size or shape they happen to be.

Yeah, that was the wrong way to put it. I'm not sympathetic to people who hate fat people (or ugly people, disabled people, etc), and my mention of disgust includes the internalized self-loathing many people feel about themselves. I meant to say that that can't just be handwaved away. Telling people "ignore the haters, you look great just the way you are" when they don't believe it, and know that people (including the one giving the compliment) don't genuinely see them that way can be patronising.