How would you define suffering?

[Cassius Clay]

Explain.

[Derived Absurdity]

Suffering is unpleasant experiences.

I try to keep it simple and real.

Why the question?

[CashRules]

A house full of lesbians.

[Cassius Clay]

A house full of lesbians.

Correct

[Cassius Clay]

Suffering is unpleasant experiences.

I try to keep it simple and real.

Why the question?

A week ago, I had an epiphany that has given me a much deeper understanding of human psychology, suffering/angst, and meaning. It's like a small adjustment in my thinking just reframed how I think about so many things. My mind exploded and I feel like I could write a book right now....'cause, even though it's just a minor change in perspective, it's so fundamental that there are just so many things it affects. And I know I'm not on new ground, I'm sure people have written about these things in different contexts (and a lot of it is sort of common sense), but when I look at discussions on things like the benefits of "mindfulness" or meditation or spirituality, I see a lot of people talking over each other who seem to be missing something essential. I have a deeper appreciation for the importance/power of religious belief (but still an atheist), a deeper appreciation of the importance of social bonds, a deeper understanding of the importance of self-determination, a better understanding of meditation, a more coherent understanding of common wisdom about "going with the flow", and an even deeper understanding of how important culture is to people (and how appropriation is even more harmful - on a psychological level - than I thought). And I feel like I finally have a real answer to the riddle of how to strive to improve yourself(without the angsty self-punishment), while truly accepting yourself. I've been wanting to make a post about it, but there's just a lot of things to write about. So, I decided to simply discuss suffering.

[Cassius Clay]

And I make a distinction between pain and suffering. Similar to the distinction between fear and anxiety.

Or, in the other direction, sex and lovemaking .

[Derived Absurdity]

Well, yeah, because pain and suffering are different. Pain is the subjective experience/feeling associated with a mental state that occurs following the activation of nociceptors. It's usually unpleasant but it doesn't have to be. Suffering, in the language of psychology, is simply negative valence (any affective state which is unpleasant or aversive).

[Cassius Clay]

Would you classify emotions like anger and fear as strictly unpleasant?

[Derived Absurdity]

It depends entirely on context. Fear when you're running away from a predator is strictly unpleasant, but fear when watching a scary movie can be mixed or purely positive. Our neocortex allows our emotions to be interlocked and encephalized in intricate and complex ways, subject to our higher-order cognition (built sloppily and haphazardly on top of our limbic system which houses our emotions). Most other animals don't have this opportunity/burden.

Anger is more straightforwardly negative, but some people also get off on being outraged, so it can be mixed too.

There are only a few emotions I can think of that are always strictly unpleasant. Depression, for example. Even though some people can delude themselves into thinking their depression is fine, it always has an acutely unpleasant subjective texture.

[Cassius Clay]

I feel like "pleasant" and "unpleasant" are words that are too simplistic and limiting. Understanding suffering only in terms of pleasure and non-pleasure is a huge mistake...it's a framing that can't take into account too many things. And I believe that seeing experiences strictly in terms of pleasurable and non-pleasurable actually enhances suffering.

[Derived Absurdity]

Well, as a psychological hedonist I would pretty strongly disagree. The pleasure/suffering axis is the backbone of all our affective states. It undergirds the entire strata of our conscious experience.

I'm not saying there's no nuance here, and practically it can be self-destructive to frame life that way, but I think fundamentally when you look at life broadly pleasure/suffering is pretty much the entire picture.

[Cassius Clay]

What if I defined suffering as a sort of angst and/or emptiness one feels when experience (either pain or pleasure) is disconnected from larger meaning or purpose?

[Derived Absurdity]

That would still fit. Most humans naturally seek meaning/purpose and suffer when they don't get it.

[Cassius Clay]

I'm assuming you would describe having larger meaning as pleasurable. I still think that's too reductionist.

[Derived Absurdity]

I don't really get what you're saying now. Meaning is entirely subjective. One of the more reliable ways to achieve lasting happiness is to have a strong sense of meaning to your life. It's no coincidence that those most likely to say "life is meaningless" are the depressed. "Meaning" is a subjective experience/perception which is very closely tied to hedonic states.

[Cassius Clay]

Yes, of course having purpose is more desirable, but I think framing it only in terms of "pleasure" is too one-dimensional. Feelings and thoughts that are typically considered negative, when placed in the context of larger subjective purpose aren't suddenly "pleasurable"(though, sometimes they are)....they are just much less agonizing because they "make sense"....and you may feel more motivated/invigorated in your willingness experience it.

[Derived Absurdity]

I'm not really sure what we're disagreeing on. Can you explain your position more clearly?

[BruceSmith78]

Sometimes you experience things from which you derive no pleasure, in fact they may bring you displeasure, but they serve your purpose of being, thus do not cause you to suffer. I think that simplifies Castor's position. He can correct me if I'm wrong, or elaborate.

[Cassius Clay]

@Bruce That is basically what I'm trying to say, but I'm having difficulty articulating it more precisely than that.

It's like with working out. Working out is difficult, it hurts and it's tiring. If you don't even want to work out and has no real meaning for you, the pain can be agonizing, but when the experience is connected to a larger purpose or goal all the pain and fatigue is transformed into something else. Not quite pleasurable, but no longer agonizing.

[BruceSmith78]

[Cassius Clay]

Lol. He feels like he's "camming" day and night. Well, I guess DA is correct.

[Cassius Clay]

Simplistically, I see suffering more as useless pain...not just pain. Pain that seems to have no meaning tends to be more agonizing.



And there's something about broadly defining suffering as "unpleasantness" that I feel doesn't quite do justice to the importance of that distinction. Though there might be a semantic issue here.

[Derived Absurdity]

All pain is useless pain.

EDIT: Should say all suffering is useless suffering. There is no such thing as "meaningful" or "useful" suffering.

[Cassius Clay]

Yes. Everything I've said so far should suggest that I believe "useful suffering" is a contradiction. By definition, suffering is the subjective experience of some kind of pain or difficulty that seems to have no larger purpose/meaning/significance that justifies it on any level(goal-wise, culturally, spiritually, etc). Suffering is unnecessary.

[Cassius Clay]

And, in other words, what I'm really saying is that I think the most crucial or defining aspect of suffering is the absence of meaning, not merely the presence of difficulty(even though there is obviously a lot of overlap).

And part of what I realized is that it may be more useful, on a spiritual/personal level, to understand suffering as more of an absence than as a presence. Reminds me of how some Christians define hell not as a presence of bad stuff, but as an absence of God.

[Derived Absurdity]

Well, I can agree with that, but only insofar as a sense of meaning or purpose can turn what would otherwise be unpleasant to pleasant. I'm very reductionist on these matters; I think it all comes down to hedonic states.

So, like, if someone was starving due to living in a poor despotic country through no fault of his own, but he was able to console himself by convincing himself that it was all part of a greater plan and that it helps build character (thereby giving his starvation "meaning"), would he not be suffering?

[Cassius Clay]

only insofar as a sense of meaning or purpose can turn what would otherwise be unpleasant to pleasant. I'm very reductionist on these matters

A part of me wants to agree with that, but there's something about it that intuitively doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's that thinking strictly in terms of pleasure-seeking leads to basic pleasure-seeking...but "meaning" goes beyond that. Even though the result of finding meaning may give some good feelings and alleviate some really bad feelings, there can be something elusive about thinking of that as the point. I think because it gives you a sort of tunnel vision...which, in many ways, is the opposite of meaning.

So, like, if someone was starving due to living in a poor despotic country through no fault of his own, but he was able to console himself by convincing himself that it was all part of a greater plan and that it helps build character (thereby giving his starvation "meaning"), would he not be suffering?

That's a difficult question to answer without being mistaken as callous. Let's also make a distinction between a first-person, experiential suffering and and outsider, "objective" measurement of what suffering looks like. Meaning is a very personal thing...and it's something very tied with a sense of self-determination. The more extreme a situation is, and the less power you seem to have over it, the harder it is to "make sense" of it. But, if(and that's a very big if), he/she is able to truly find some deep sense of meaning that can somehow "make sense" of their dire situation and give them a sense of power; then yes, I believe the personal experience of suffering will be alleviated. But, again, that is extremely difficult if not impossible. But, that is what religion and spirituality gives to people...the ability to find meaning in the most painfully meaningless of circumstances. That is why evil people in power have tried to use religion to placate people they've oppressed/enslaved/exploited. I do think finding meaning in such circumstances has uses other than placation...it might also give you courage to revolt and fight.

Edit: And I just realized how that last bit connects to Islamic extremism. Western imperialism radicalizes Muslim populations when it destroys everything they live for. With nothing left, some of them turn to more extreme forms of Islam to "make sense" of the madness. This something I've known to be true, but now it's true in a deeper, more human way...and I want to uppercut every Islamophobe in the face, starting with that disingenuous cunt Sam Harris.

Edit 2: I should also clarify that I don't mean to imply that a more extreme version of Islam is necessarily violent. That's a hidden assumption that these sneaky Islamophobic fucks have gotten us to accept in some ways.

[The Creep]

Being sober.