The Pitters' Place

Babadook - pretty good. Unfortunately it's not very scary, but it's very rich in thematic meaning and stuff. I probably would have been far more scared if I was a single mother suffering from mental illness and who despises and resents my son, since that was clearly what the movie was about, but I can still appreciate what this movie was attempting on a purely cerebral level if not a visceral emotive one. More horror movies that mean stuff, please.

Nightcrawler - sikax was right, this movie rocks. Jake Gyllenhall plays the creepiest and most subhuman motherfucker I've ever seen. This movie has no flaws. Zero. Well, I mean, if I had to pick a flaw it might be that it's a bit too on-the-nose with the point it's making, especially at the end, but really, that's pretty forgivable. Everything - the consistent tone, the perfect pacing, the acting, the tight and intelligent writing - was perfect. There really isn't much more to say. Go see it.

Boyhood - goddammit this fucking sucked. Why do I listen to critics? I want six hours of my life back, or however long this turgid piece of shit was. God. I'd rather watch a fucking Transformers movie than see this again. There is not a single fucking thing here to recommend. At all. None. That is the very last time I give a shit about what critics have to say about anything. I'm angry even just thinking about it now. This movie is second only to The Grudge as the most boring movie I've ever seen, and I literally haven't been able to watch The Grudge without falling asleep. And I've tried four times. That's not even hyperbole. So you know what I'm saying. Please, just stay the hell away from it.

Two Days, One Night - ah yesss, this was good. Very, very good. Marion Cotillard is good in everything. Even The Dark Knight Rises. She's so good that, as horrible as TDKR is, she was able to bring it up rather than have it bring her down. This movie right here, though, is just... great. It's nakedly, blatantly, unabashedly hyper-emotional, and those types of movies are very difficult to pull off without coming off as saccharine and hollow. It's a movie which can only be made by someone who is deeply in touch with their humanity, and the result is really something that can't be described with words. Words by their very nature will just debase it. It's something that needs to be experienced. So... go do that.

I don't know, I've seen a lot of other movies recently, but those are the ones that made the most impression on me. I would really like to go into more detail on some of them, but I'm really not in the right mood right now for some reason. Maybe later. I could write a fucking book on all the reasons why Boyhood sucks.

Agreed on both counts of Nightcrawler and Boyhood. Haven't seen the other two yet. I'm very glad you enjoyed Nightcrawler. I mean, it's impossible not to.

I researched Nightcrawler after watching it and it's the guy's directorial debut. That's highly impressive. Are there any other directors out there who have such a promising debut? I can't think of any. McQueen, maybe? He's the only one I can think of at the moment that comes close.

I can't think of any contemporary directors with a better debut. Sam Mendes' American Beauty is really really good. Let's see. Top of my head for all-time best debuts:

Richard Kelly - Donnie Darko
Frank Darabont - The Shawshank Redemption
Steve McQueen - Hunger
Martin Scorcese - Mean Streets
John Singleton - Boyz n the Hood
Wes Anderson - Bottle Rocket
David Lynch - Eraserhead
Quentin Tarantino - Reservoir Dogs
John Huston - The Maltese Falcon
Orson Welles - Citizen Kane

Oh, Charlie Kaufman's Synecdoche, New York should easily count. I can't believe I forgot it. It is certainly one of the most brilliant movies I've seen.

Out of all the films there I've seen, I don't think any (except maybe McQueen and I guess possibly Welles, which I haven't seen) really compare to Nightcrawler. The only good contender I can think of is Kaufman.

Derived Absurdity wrote:Charlie Kaufman's Synecdoche, New York

Have yet to see that one. I trust your judgment, for the most part, so I'll make it a point to see that one soon.

sikax wrote:I trust your judgment, for the most part

Finally, someone here has their head on straight.

You were wrong about The Lovely Bones and the last two Nolan Batmans, but I'll let it slide. I think you're the only other person here who's seen Nightcrawler. We can bond over that.

I don't really care about The Lovely Bones but I will legitimately fight you on TDKR. Seriously, what do you see in that? It's a thematically incoherent, poorly scripted, facile, cloying, contrived, illogical, self-contradictory mess. Plus it's just boring. I mean, it legitimately sucks - not just in comparison to the previous film, but in comparison to, like, everything. And there's also some rather ugly and not-exactly-hidden fascist messages in there amid all the mess of nonsense and contradictions. Really... it's bad. And I will defend that point of view to the death. Because it's legitimately, objectively bad.

But you're right about Nightcrawler, and you're also right about Boyhood when no one else is, so you're still cool.

Since I'm a bit of a Nolan fanboy, and Batman has always been my favorite superhero(I mean..I even liked the George Clooney one), I'm gonna have to tell you to watch your fucking mouth. TDKR is almost a spiritual movie for me.

It fucking blows and Nolan fucking blows. It's a fascist piece of shit. Sorry but them's the facts.

Yeah, I got the fascist message from TDKR but despite of that I thought it was a good movie. The Lovely Bones was a piece of shit though.

I'm not sure how anybody could have missed the fascism. Fifteen minutes into the movie I was wondering if Nolan was intentionally trying to tell the fans what he really thinks of cops.

CashRules wrote:I'm not sure how anybody could have missed the fascism. Fifteen minutes into the movie I was wondering if Nolan was intentionally trying to tell the fans what he really thinks of cops.

My catholic friends who are anti-government to a point where is almost religious liked this movie as well. The message of this movie was more in your face than Argo and they despised Argo because of the propaganda. So I guess it was a good movie despite the whole in your face message.

Derived Absurdity wrote:I will legitimately fight you on TDKR.

Mmmmmm I don't feel nearly as strongly as you do on it, so whatevs. It was good enough for me. I think the prison escape scene did it for me. That was good stuff, ya know, "You need to fear death to escape" and all that.

But you're right about Nightcrawler, and you're also right about Boyhood when no one else is, so you're still cool.

Damn fuckin straight.

sikax wrote:I think the prison escape scene did it for me. That was good stuff, ya know, "You need to fear death to escape" and all that.

The escape from the pit is the entire trilogy for me. It comes full circle with themes about fear it had been exploring since the first one. In Batman Begins, Ra's al Ghul tells Wayne that he must defeat his fear to become "more than just a man"(or something like that), which is one of the reasons he chooses to wear a bat costume...terrorizing his enemies with his very own deep fears. Fear of bats being one of his deepest fears, since he was attacked by bats in a well he fell into as a child(this fear then leading to his parents' deaths...making it more traumatic). But, as I see it, this training from Ra's al Neeson encourages an antagonistic relationship(as opposed to embracing) with his own fear...shutting off that part of himself...turning his own will against itself...creating an internal incongruity. This is worsened when Rachel is killed in the second one. He loses some of that will to live.

I feel like the little speech the old man gives him in the pit addresses this. "You do not fear death. You think this makes you strong. It makes you weak.....How can you move faster/fight longer than possible without the most powerful impulse of the spirit?....Then make the climb...As the child did. Without the rope. Then fear will find you again."'

There is deep wisdom, and poignant subtleties about the internal/subjective human experience, that are being expressed there(That certain haters can't see and/or appreciate. Yeah! Come at me haters!!!)...things that are difficult and/or near impossible to articulate. Though, I admit that I may be reading more into it than Nolan intended, I somewhat doubt that because I've seen similar wisdom in his other films. It was important for Bruce to embrace his fear, rather than fight it, because it's a part of his spirit/will. He was weakened because his will was turned against itself...he was in a discordant state. Because he believed he needed to be fearless to succeed. Though some of us do so more/less than others, I think most of us generally live life that way(due to the nature of thought/construct), without presence and internal oneness/balance(I remember talking about this with you on the other board. I've had many times in my life where I've felt completely "present". Feeling like I'd just suddenly woken up from a dream that felt completely real. Just being, without the typical discordance the mind can create). The rope represents the safety net of our minds(the constructs we create that distance ourselves from present being/experience and confuse us...the constructs that convince us we need them to be ourselves...to the point where we are unable to distinguish them from our most present selves)....something CHILDREN lack when they are really young...but as they get older, they learn to develop more and more constructs and maps of their own selves to "live life" vicariously through...rather than living life presently/directly. Just being. And the more trauma a person experiences through life, the more likely they develop these particular defense mechanisms that distance themselves from...themselves(often necessary for survival at the time, but unhealthy in the long run). The way our will interacts with our minds(source of thought/language), tends to pit will against will. Dividing us against ourselves...so that our will/being is scattered all over our day to day lives...instead of having one "center"...one fluid sense of being.

I guess what adds to the personal significance for me is that these are self-actualizing lessons that I learned over time...over the course of the trilogy...'cause all three films were made over about a decade. I'm still fairly young, so that's a lot of growing/maturing/evolving. The themes I saw in the first movie when I was much younger, meant something different to me then. As I matured, that meaning evolved into something else over time...and the speech/climbing out of the pit moment represented that personal evolution for me...an evolution the character seemed to be making. Then when Bruce makes it to the top, right before the leap, bats suddenly fly out over his head. I said to myself "Fuck you, Nolan!" for making me have to fight back tears in a theater while watching a movie about fucking Batman...of all things! It's just an unexpected, yet perfectly symbolic, full-circle moment. From his falling in a well full of bats as a child, and then embracing that fear(a fear he thought he needed to "conquer"...a fear he fought his whole life) to escape the pit. Jesus. That's a spiritual moment. And you haters can't see how meaningful that is???? You should be ashamed of yourselves![none]

Then on top of that you've got Hans Zimmer, who does music for a lot of Nolan's movies, composing music that perfectly coincides with and intensifies these poignant moments. I became a Nolan fan after 'Inception', but I became a Nolan fanboy after this moment from TDKR. He explores subtle and/or unclear things about the human experience/emotion/spirituality in a way that makes me feel like he sees certain things the way I do. And he has managed to put that on film consistently enough for me to say this dude "gets it". I feel a similar way about M. Night. I don't care how many bad movies that bastard has made since. They've both made at least 2 or 3 movies that have been meaningful in ways I didn't think could even be expressed in film. And have done so in with unexpected topics/genres(superhero movies, horror, thrillers/suspense, etc)

And I honestly didn't pay much attention to any political implications in all three films. I see there is a lot of talk about corrupt police departments...but Nolan attributes that to mob infiltration...rather than the fact that cops serve the rich and powerful. So, I'm sure Nolan's politics are fucked up. What rich, white man has truly progressive politics?

Maybe Chomsky? Is he even rich tho?

Can I have some of whatever you're on?

No, seriously, I sort of understand what you're saying... sort of... I think... but I don't really get how most of that stuff relates to the movie. I mean, I know all art is open to interpretation, but... yeah, I don't get most of that. Maybe I can try to make sense of it and respond to it later.

Shut up!

Everything Troy said is correct.

And I just wrote a really long post explaining why, but it would sound stupid to everyone but him, I assume, so whatevs.

Cassius Clay wrote:Shut up!

Well... without reading too much into the movie.

To me the rope obviously represent a safety net, as you said, that safety allows us to get comfortable and underachieve in our lives, because that's the backup. Reminded me on the finals where I had a good performance throughout the year, so I didn't study, I even fail some of them, didn't care. But when I had a low score, I got "the fear", and I studied. I had that fear for Biostatistics and Human Anatomy, I wasn't doing well though I was going to fail, so I studied all day and night and they ended up being my highest scores.

So the point of this for me was, that many people try to be tough saying "they don't fear death" when is that same fear that keeps us going, wants us to be better, makes us love life. How you are willing to perform miracles to keep life. It's like Ned Stark said, fear is the only time a man can be brave.

So yes, that was an awesome moment.


But yes, the political message was screwed up.

What I got from that scene was that he was in a prison and wanted to escape so that he could go save Gotham.

I'd just like to point out I thought Boyhood sucked before anyone else here. I almost discouraged Sikax from seeing it, although that wasn't really my intention.

This is making me want to see Boyhood.

Bruce is correct.

BruceSmith78 wrote:I'd just like to point out I thought Boyhood sucked before anyone else here. I almost discouraged Sikax from seeing it, although that wasn't really my intention.

I don't remember that but you have my respect for it anyway.

Liszt, fhere are some things you really shouldn't joke about.

@sikax You should have posted it anyway. Screw the haters that can't appreciate the depth(symbolically, thematically, etc) of that whole sequence!!

@everyone else Shut up!

But, for real, even if you put aside my personal interpretations, and the things that hold personal significance for me. Like what the rope means, what the child represents, recognizing my own personal growth over the decade being explored in that sequence, the division of will, etc. Even if you leave all that, it should be undeniable that this is a conclusion of the theme of fear that started with 'Batman Begins'....full circle...back to the beginning. If you are watching it too literally, all you will see is a dude using the adrenaline from fear to make a difficult leap...but there is so much more going on there. They even show a flashback of young Wayne's point of view in the well..which physically aligns with the pit. He is still haunted by that childhood trauma in the well with the bats(I mean..the dude fights crime in a freaking bat costume). And the pit is basically a giant well. So, when Bruce is making the climb...in a way, it's really young master Wayne finally rising out of the well(the child)...he's been in that well his whole life. I mean, there's just a lot going on thematically/symbolically that is pretty fucking powerful on it's own(without the extra stuff that has personal significance for me). Only someone without a heart can't see that! Nolan pretty much hits the audience over the head with the symbolic imagery(the well/pit, the bats).

Behold!
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXxw-zX ... r_embedded[/youtube]

I never said TDKR wasn't good but it was the weakest of the trilogy and I think Bale was tired of the role by then. I can actually appreciate the fact that it does portray cops as Nazi stormtroopers. It just worries me that people watch it and think that's how cops are supposed to act and that it's a good thing.

Yeah I liked the part when the cops were stuck in the sewers for like six months. Hehe

Cassius Clay wrote:@sikax You should have posted it anyway. Screw the haters that can't appreciate the depth(symbolically, thematically, etc) of that whole sequence!!

My heart's not in it at the moment to think and type things. And I'm about to go camping for the weekend, so, like, maybe on Monday when I'm back in the real world.

Yes, I recognized the symbolism of the cave the first time I watched it, it really wasn't subtle. I appreciated Nolan at least attempting to tie the whole thing together thematically, but as I said the result as I saw it was extremely contrived and cloying.

Nah. I don't believe you. If you really appreciated and/or deeply understood what was happening, the moment would not have come across as over-the-top, emotionally indulgent, or out of place in any way. It's one short, lone moment in an entire trilogy, spanning a decade...a moment honoring the spirit of the character and the series...a conclusive moment honoring what sparked the whole thing. It deserved the gravity Nolan tried to give it.

Or you're just extremely cynical.

Edit: Catharsis was the word I've been looking for. It's meant to be the cathartic moment of the trilogy(cathartic for audience, thematically, and the character's development(emotionally/psychology). To suggest that it was emotionally over-the-top tells me you miss the point.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the cave scene thematically speaking if it's taken in isolation (putting aside the actual literal, physical aspect of the scene, which as many people have pointed out doesn't actually work), but putting it in context with the rest of the crappy movie - which, as I said, I think is contrived and cloying - it suffers greatly. It's not really possible or even a good idea to divorce one particular scene from the rest of the film and analyze it in isolation. As it happens Nolan was spending the entire film, not just that one scene, trying to make artistic hay out of connecting it with the first film, and in my opinion virtually none of it succeeded. If the rest of the film was any good, I might agree with you on the cave scene.

And I never said it was emotionally over-the-top. If there's any scene in the trilogy which deserves emotional weight, it's that one. I said it was contrived. If anything I would have liked more emotion in the trilogy and the last film in particular, as that's another complaint I have with it (and Nolan in general - he's not a very emotive filmmaker).

Hmmmm....I think I understand better where you're coming from now.

For me, it was a scene that unexpectedly added a lot of emotional depth to the character...in a way that ties it all up with the beginning. I wasn't watching big bad batman climbing out of the pit...I was watching the little boy finally climbing out of the well. I just found it to be a metaphorically/symbolically rich scene. But I think I can see what you mean that it doesn't match most of the trilogy. But that's kinda also what made it a particularly moving scene for me. It's like a sudden revelation of something...and fitting since its in the context of a conclusion of the story and theme.