Someone says murder is ok if he accidentally has sex with a trans woman

[Anakin McFly]

"this may be unpopular"

The sad thing is it isn't.
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_a ... _a/d7bm6sa
(me = aaskew)

Thread continues here, if you want to see him argue about how all minorities need to compromise because majorities have rights and feelings too, so trans people can agree to compromise by not having sex, and cis people will compromise by not killing us:
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_a ... vf#d7cibvf

I know this is a fraught topic. Sexual orientation is largely tied to biology, and I concede that many people might be repulsed at knowing they had sex with a trans person no matter how accepting they might otherwise be. Even if it's society's fault, it's not easily changeable.

But in the cases of post-transition trans women who are biologically more female than male and may be phenotypically indistinguishable from any other woman, whose naked body a straight guy is genuinely attracted to and has very enjoyable sex with only to later be horrified upon finding out she's trans, that biology! argument doesn't hold up as much. I doubt that social factors and insecurities have absolutely nothing to do with it, especially given how this phenomenon is limited to straight men. You don't see the same with lesbians, or of straight women or gay men murdering trans men who slept with them without telling them they're trans. Or suicide: he said that if someone is so repulsed by having unknowingly had sex with a trans woman that he kills himself, his death is on her hands for prioritising her own pleasure despite knowing how much it might hurt him.

Trans women have been murdered just because some guy found them attractive and he couldn't cope with it because he thought it made him gay. It might not make it right to keep that information private in a sexual encounter, but it at least makes it more understandable than most sex crimes out there which I'm guessing that guy isn't half as outraged about. And heck, if the world was less dangerous and hostile for trans women, I'm guessing they would be a lot more willing to let potential sexual partners know they're trans.

Younger people who grow up with trans friends have a lot less issue with later dating them - if they've known them all their lives as that gender, they don't seem to care as much about what parts they have, and it's not because they're all bisexual. So there's obviously other stuff at work here. I wish people would at least acknowledge that much.

I think I might not be being completely reasonable on that thread though. Or maybe it's just the way he's trying to make me look unreasonable. It's been going on far too long.

EDIT: on another thread someone made the good point that letting other people know that one is trans gives them tremendous power to potentially ruin or end your life through blackmail or telling other people who may turn violent. So it's often not even a matter of withholding information with the intent to deceive, but rather withholding information as a measure of personal safety, especially if it's with a person you just got to know.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

Yeah...the whole issue is rough for the trans community. There's still such a value in male culture regarding keeping one's masculinity that there's a fear that doing anything remotely feminine will make everyone, including himself, question his manhood. .

Having sex with a trans woman would be one of the ultimate betrayals to his maculinity because he can't fathom how the trans person is a woman. In his mind, the woman is a man and it forces him to wonder how he could find a man attractive. And because of the still ever present homophobia, he may turn violent to prove his manhood.

And I think a lot of it has to do with having very little to no exposure to trans people. By which I mean most of us have probably met a trans person but never realized it. And what you have outlined is why. It's not a secret to trick people. No one expects me to say " I'm cis". It's just assumed. But with how we are as a society, trans people unfortunately still must largely remain silent on their identity except with those they absolutely trust.

I have a friend who is currently dating a trans woman, and it was a little surprising when she (the trans woman) told us. I always considered her a woman, and for about a week I had to bite my tongue so I wouldn't call her by a masculine pronoun (it slipped once, but that was in context of D&D where there was already some gender bending going on in the game).

My point to that is that up to that time, I was not exposed to anyone in the trans community aside from yourself, and internet is vastly different from real world. But before that exposure , I would not have considered dating those in transgender community. Then I ended up having a nice dinner with such a person (turned out to be more of a "we both just need to get out" & spend time with someone new type thing).

I think I lost my point somewhere which is: i wish trans people could be more open but they are hindered by very real threats of violence that keeps them from being so.. And then putting such value on masculinity contributes to such violence.

[Anakin McFly]

Yeah, someone else pointed out how a lot of the repulsion stems from homophobia rather than biology. Many gay men end up in straight marriages and the primary emotion is disinterest rather than disgust, so repulsion to the sex you're not attracted to is not actually a biological reaction.

The exposure thing is why I dislike posts asking people if they'd ever date a trans person. Many have never knowingly met one, and the question makes them figure out their stance based on usually-negative stereotypes of trans people. They might then decide that they'd never date a trans person, and come up with justifications why not, and make it a point to exclude trans people from their dating pool, whereas if they'd liked someone IRL and that person turned out to be trans they might have been much more okay with it than they thought.

Sometimes it's also not just the violence but the desire to be normal and treated like everyone else. I have friends (including trans women) whom I know would be completely accepting, but I haven't told them because I don't want to end up being the only trans guy they know - which other friends have told me I am. No matter how great with it they are, I could do without the responsibility to be a good representative of the trans community.

I was looking up things on rape-by-deception and someone mentioned that she knew trans women who lied when their would-be partners asked if they were trans, which made me uncomfortable. But she also questioned why knowing that information is important (in the context of casual sex), unless the guy planned to treat her differently based on her answer, and likely in a worse manner if she said yes. I think it's possible to reach a point where this no longer matters at all, where someone being cis or trans is as important as hair colour - people may still have preferences, but you don't murder someone if they had a dye job. It's interesting to see the vast differences in reaction towards intersex people with identical conditions raised as different genders but identifying as the same one: if they were raised as a girl and identify as female, people are often full of sympathy for their medical condition, but if someone with that exact same condition was raised as a boy and also identifies as female, all the pitchforks come out. Biologically there's no difference, just as how a physical medical examination would not be able to distinguish between a post-op early transitioning trans woman on estrogen and an intersex woman with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome who's genetically male, infertile and running on estrogen, but both populations get treated very differently.

Though with more and more trans people transitioning in adolescence or childhood - just 5-6 years ago when I started at 21 it was already considered very young, and it's crazy how fast things change - there'll come a time when the average trans person looks exactly like anyone else of that sex, skeletal structure and all. While it sucks that that's needed to get acceptance, it'll probably do a lot to help our lizard brains make it less of a big deal.

[Monk]

My lack of response to this is not that I don't care, but more that I really don't know how to respond other than "holy fuck what a xenophobic POS"

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

My lack of response to this is not that I don't care, but more that I really don't know how to respond other than "holy fuck what a xenophobic POS"

I can kind of understand the person's point, just nowhere near to the point of agreeing. I've experienced being ostracized for not fitting into male expectations. For playing with girls more than boys as a kid. I've been questioned about my sexuality simply because I never dated, let alone tried to sleep with anyone. And if I've face that kind of pressure to fit in to the male paragon, then I can see how violence could occure because of the internal conflict caused.

I've started getting manicures/pedicures (due to some exercise classes I'm taking) & it feels like I'm entering some secret sanctuary. And yes I have one friend who considers it feminization. Point is, it's still kind of discomforting because it really does feel like a woman's place.

And if I go through that, I can only imagine what someone who isn't nearly as open as me can do if his view of his masculinity is challenged.

[Unvoiced_Apollo]

Yeah, someone else pointed out how a lot of the repulsion stems from homophobia rather than biology. Many gay men end up in straight marriages and the primary emotion is disinterest rather than disgust, so repulsion to the sex you're not attracted to is not actually a biological reaction.

The exposure thing is why I dislike posts asking people if they'd ever date a trans person. Many have never knowingly met one, and the question makes them figure out their stance based on usually-negative stereotypes of trans people. They might then decide that they'd never date a trans person, and come up with justifications why not, and make it a point to exclude trans people from their dating pool, whereas if they'd liked someone IRL and that person turned out to be trans they might have been much more okay with it than they thought.

Sometimes it's also not just the violence but the desire to be normal and treated like everyone else. I have friends (including trans women) whom I know would be completely accepting, but I haven't told them because I don't want to end up being the only trans guy they know - which other friends have told me I am. No matter how great with it they are, I could do without the responsibility to be a good representative of the trans community.

I was looking up things on rape-by-deception and someone mentioned that she knew trans women who lied when their would-be partners asked if they were trans, which made me uncomfortable. But she also questioned why knowing that information is important (in the context of casual sex), unless the guy planned to treat her differently based on her answer, and likely in a worse manner if she said yes. I think it's possible to reach a point where this no longer matters at all, where someone being cis or trans is as important as hair colour - people may still have preferences, but you don't murder someone if they had a dye job. It's interesting to see the vast differences in reaction towards intersex people with identical conditions raised as different genders but identifying as the same one: if they were raised as a girl and identify as female, people are often full of sympathy for their medical condition, but if someone with that exact same condition was raised as a boy and also identifies as female, all the pitchforks come out. Biologically there's no difference, just as how a physical medical examination would not be able to distinguish between a post-op early transitioning trans woman on estrogen and an intersex woman with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome who's genetically male, infertile and running on estrogen, but both populations get treated very differently.

Though with more and more trans people transitioning in adolescence or childhood - just 5-6 years ago when I started at 21 it was already considered very young, and it's crazy how fast things change - there'll come a time when the average trans person looks exactly like anyone else of that sex, skeletal structure and all. While it sucks that that's needed to get acceptance, it'll probably do a lot to help our lizard brains make it less of a big deal.

It's definitely a good point about wanting to be treated normal. I had met the date I mentioned through a friend, but beforehand, I had another friend who had concerns, straight out asking the other "Was your friend born a woman?" And at that moment, I mentally did a headdesk. Needless to say I remained silent while the one that inquired got a talking to about how if it got to an intimate, most would share. After reading this, I'm not so sure that is true, but I also can't blame them because as you said, it offers them a sense of normalcy (& protects them violence). The trans friend's overall point with all things being equal, it shouldn't matter.

[Anakin McFly]

I think most trans people will say so prior to any sex, and it's more those who have reason to think it won't be received well based on what vibe they get off the guy. e.g. if he's the macho posturing type it's probably not a good idea.