Upon further review...

[Derived Absurdity]

I still don't really see how what you're wanting is contrary to what Troy is asking. Vote Democrat to stop the Republicans, but in the meantime keep them the fuck away from any progressive movement-building. What's the alternative, refuse to vote Dem and try to build mass progressive movements with the Republicans in charge of everything? Yeah, good luck. The Dems' sabotage of Occupy Wall Street will be nothing compared to how a Republican-controlled government is going to treat a protest against capitalism or imperialism. The Dems absorb and neuter those, but the Republicans will annihilate them and pour salt on the earth before anyone would even know what was happening, laws and principles be damned.

[the_dork_lord]

"Vote Democrat to stop the Republicans, but in the meantime keep them the fuck away from any progressive movement-building."

How could you possibly campaign for Democrats while keeping them away? This makes absolutely no sense.

"The Dems' sabotage of Occupy Wall Street will be nothing to how a Republican-controlled government is going to treat a protest against capitalism or imperialism. The Dems absorb and neuter those, but the Republicans will annihilate them and pour salt on the earth before anyone would even know what was happening, laws and principles be damned."

Probably. What's your point? If they're doomed under both admins, then don't support either.

The Republicans and Democrats aren't the same, but they have the same goal. At the beginning of Star Wars, Tarkin and Vader argue over the best way to stop the rebellion. Tarkin wants a full-scale attack and Vader wants a lighter approach. They disagree, but they have the same goal: Eradicate the rebellion. Would the rebellion be better off if Vader got promoted over Tarkin? Maybe. Do you think the rebellion should, therefore, use its resources to campaign for a promotion for Vader? Say good things about him? Promote him to the public?

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

We don't need the Democrats to do that because mass movements could do it much better

What are these "mass movements" meant to me achieving (exactly)? Cos that could mean loads of different things... a change in the whole mechanics of government (for example moving to Proportional Representation)/the creation of a new political party (and enough popular support that it actually has enough votes to beat the existing electoral system)/getting the exiting politicians to "see the error in their ways" and do things differently/something else entirely...?

And in the interim (assuming that the "mass movements" can't make this goal happen instantly) what's wrong with picking the lesser of two evils rather than just decrying them both as "not being what I exactly want so I won't really participate"?

[the_dork_lord]

"What are these "mass movements" meant to me achieving (exactly)?"

Depends on what they fight for.

"And in the interim (assuming that the "mass movements" can't make this goal happen instantly) what's wrong with picking the lesser of two evils rather than just decrying them both as "not being what I exactly want so I won't really participate"?"

Because - as I explained in a really long post earlier - doing so kills the movements.

[Derived Absurdity]

I never said campaign for the Democrats, I said vote for them. And my whole point is that they would not be doomed under Democrats as long as you don't let them co-opt them and neutralize them. Make sure it's well-known among progressives how dangerous Dems are for any genuinely progressive movement (as has been said the Democrats are "the second-most enthusiastic capitalist party in the world") and quarantine them so that they (at least implicitly) know their place in the world, which is to stop the Republicans and nothing more. But the Republicans are going to immediately go scorched earth on any mildly progressive movement they see if they have the power, so there's no hope in that case.

[the_dork_lord]

So vote Democrat and encourage nobody else to? That seems pointless.

There's a long history of the "election the Democrats then fight" strategy. It doesn't work. And it wastes an opportunity to call the Democrats out for who they are.

[Derived Absurdity]

Again, what's the alternative. Nothing good will happen under the Republicans. Nothing. Zero. Zilch.

[the_dork_lord]

Lots of good can happen under the Republicans if people fight for it.

[the_dork_lord]

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/trum ... orkers-cwa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[the_dork_lord]

[Cassius Clay]

Do you only listen to minorities who already agree with you?

Quit thinking in absolutes. Multiple things can be true at once. It's true a lot of comfortable, privileged people simply settle for a lesser evil and don't really give a damn about change. But, peep this: it's also true that not voting against such a devastating threat(and encouraging others not to as well) is a very stupid thing to do. You don't have to be some comfy liberal to think that. And trotting out young, naive POCs(who, like you, think in absolutes) is an icky thing to do.

^^^Check out all that nuance!

[the_dork_lord]

"But, peep this: it's also true that not voting against such a devastating threat(and encouraging others not to as well) is a very stupid thing to do."

So I *should* encourage others to do so. Which means I *should* get my movements in bed with the Democrats. Which means I *should* kill the movements that would be the only thing keeping the Democrats honest anyway.

A Republican administration pressured by movements is MUCH better for the oppressed than a Democratic administration without. You're encouraging me to feed movements into the Democrats, thus creating the latter. The former has always been better.

And no, there's no historical precedent for movements campaigning for the Democrats and then suddenly turning independent. Political struggle means class independence; this isn't some sort of naive absolutism but a simple truth that has been proven historically over and over. You can't dip a toe into the enemy's quicksand and expect to pull it right out. I've seen it happen to multiple organizations.