The Pitters' Place

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... front&_r=0

1. There Will be Blood (2007)

2. Spirited Away (2001)

3. Million Dollar Baby (2004)

4. A Touch of Sin (2013)

5. The Death of Mr. Lazarescu (2006)

6. Yi Yi (2000)

7. Inside Out (2015)

8. Boyhood (2014)

9. Summer Hours (2009)

10. The Hurt Locker (2010)

11. Inside Llewyn Davis (2013)

12. Timbuktu (2015)

13. In Jackson Heights (2015)

14. L'Enfant (2006)

15. White Material (2010)

16. Munich (2005)

17. Three Times (2006)

18. The Gleaners and I (2000)

19. Mad Max: Fury Road (2015)

20. Moonlight (2016)

21. Wendy and Lucy (2008)

22. I'm Not There (2007)

23. Silent Light (2008)

24. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)

25. The 40 Year Old Virgin (2005)

I haven't seen most of the foreign films on this list, but I still find a lot of the choices on here questionable. Like even ignoring my aversion to Paul Thomas Anderson and Hayao Miyazaki...Million Dollar Baby? The Hurt Locker? Inside Llewyn Davis over No Country For Old Men and A Serious Man? No Mulholland Dr. at all?

Boyhood was fucking awful.

The Incredibles is the best Pixar movie ever. If you're gonna include a Pixar film, why include a mediocre one like Inside Out?

I loved The 40 Year Old Virgin, though.

What's wrong with Hayao Miyazaki?

Yeah, I don't take any of these lists even slightly seriously. I haven't heard of half of these movies (which is my ignorance, obv), and most of the ones I have heard of I know don't belong here. Inside Out? Seriously? The Hurt Locker? Boyhood? There Will Be Blood was great, but the greatest movie of the 21st century? I agree with Fury Road and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind however, obviously. I haven't seen 40 Year Old Virgin but I highly doubt it's the 25th best movie of the 21st century.

Along with the ones you said, where's Pan's Labyrinth? Lost in Translation? The White Ribbon? City of God? The Master? And probably a zillion other movies I can think of that deserve a higher place than fucking Boyhood?

I've only seen 4 movies on that list.
And lists like these are purely subjective anyway.
Avatar, WALL·E and Bienvenue chez les Ch'tis are not on that list, so I might as well consider this list worthless.

Ignoring the inexcusable exclusion of Mulholland Drive, which isn't only the best film of this century but is in the running with a handful of films for the best film of all time, it's not a TERRIBLE list, but it's not particularly good either. My thoughts:

1. There Will Be Blood - Rax and I have discussed our... let's say reluctance with PTA before, and TWBB is a great example of a film clearly straining after masterpiece status by imitating his directorial heroes like Kubrick. Still, I think it's quite excellent for what it is, even if it's not a masterpiece and definitely not the best film of this century.

2. Spirited Away - I love Miyazaki, but I still kinda think SA is slightly overrated, and definitely inferior to Princess Mononoke, Castle in the Sky, and My Neighbor Totoro; still, it's Miyazaki's best film of this century and I can enjoy the fact that it gained him the widespread appreciation among critics/cinephiles that he deserved.

3. Million Dollar Baby - It's typical Eastwood in that it's mawkish and dour. I think he did that whole aesthetic better in Mystic River.

4. A Touch of Sin - An excellent film but it's actually inferior to the other Jia features from this century: Platform, Unknown Pleasures, and especially The World.

5. The Death of Mr. Lazarescu - Rather overrated but I get the love for it. It's got a really, really dark sense of humor about a very serious subject done in a faux-documentary/realist style.

6. Yi Yi - Close with Mulholland Drive as the best film of this century. Everyone should see Yi Yi and Yang's other masterpiece, A Brighter Summer Day. He was one of the most phenomenally talented filmmakers of the last 30 years and his death should've rocked the film world more than it did.

7. Inside Out (2015) - Pixar's best since Toy Story, IMO. Ingenious concept executed exceptionally well.

8. Boyhood (2014) - I was really underwhelmed by this one though, again, I understand why it's beloved. It has an almost Ozu-esque sense of the passage of time while focusing on the small, human, slice-of-life moments. It ultimately just felt kinda empty to me, though.

9. Summer Hours (2009) - I saw this but don't remember much about it. I think I liked it OK, but I'm not a big Assayas fan.

10. The Hurt Locker (2010) - I really don't get the love for this film. Other than its unusual subject, it's still a pretty typical and cliched war film in every respect.

11. Inside Llewyn Davis (2013) - Again I don't get it. I love the Coens but I think this is one of their weakest films this century, perhaps only True Grit is weaker.

12. Timbuktu (2015) - NS

13. In Jackson Heights (2015) - NS

14. L'Enfant (2006) - I've seen like 3-4 Dardenne films by now and I can't tell them apart. I find them interminably dull, especially stylistically.

15. White Material (2010) - NS

16. Munich (2005) - An expertly made thriller. Really one of Spielberg's best of this century and most underrated, but no way in hell is it better than AI, which may just be his masterpiece.

17. Three Times (2006) - Like all Hou it's ravishingly gorgeous, but again NYT picked his worst film this century. It's far worse than Flight of the Red Balloon, which I think is one of the top 5 films this century, and slightly inferior to The Assassin, Cafe Lumiere, and Millennium Mambo.

18. The Gleaners and I (2000) - NS

19. Mad Max: Fury Road (2015) - Very enjoyable with its stylistic and action excess and a triumph of visual imagination in an action context. Still, again, it seems slightly overrated to me.

20. Moonlight (2016) - NS

21. Wendy and Lucy (2008) - A charming little film, though for Kelly Reichardt I prefer Old Joy.

22. I'm Not There (2007) - A very interesting film, though I couldn't shake the feeling that Haynes was a bit out of his element and the whole didn't quite work. Still, it's one of those "interesting failures" I like to talk about.

23. Silent Light (2008) - I pretty much hated this film, whose only claim to fame is that it ripped off the vastly superior Ordet.

24. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) - I need to see this again but I wasn't crazy about it when I first saw it, but I suspect I might like it better on a rewatch.

25. The 40 Year Old Virgin (2005) - Really funny film, but I'm not sure if it's top 25 material.

****

Some notable exclusions:

In the Mood for Love - I'm not a fan of this film or WKW in general, but it's widely regarded as one of the best films of this century. I'm surprised by its exclusion.

Cache (or any Haneke) - Again, I'm not a big Haneke fan (and I'd probably include The Piano Teacher if I had to pick one), but not to have any is strange.

The Tree of Life - Certainly one of the 4-5 most ambitious films of this century.

Uncle Boonmee (or any Weerasethakul) - I'm an unabashed Weera fanboy and I've said I think he's far-and-away the best new filmmaker of this century and that there's a large gap between him and whomever's second, so one of his masterpieces should be here.

Werckmeister Harmonies (or any Tarr) - Pretty much ditto above (minus the 'best of this century' since Tarr's too old for that).

Lost in Translation - Definitely one of my favorites from this century and a critical darling.

Dancer in the Dark (or any von Trier) - OK, the guy's pretentious as fuck, but he's also undeniably one of the most original and audacious filmmakers of the last 30 years, and one of his deserved a mention.

Y Tu Mama Tambien - Just a great, great film from start to finish.

City of God - Ditto

Pan's Labyrinth - Ditto

Finally, the only film list that really matters are the meta-lists done by Theyshootpictures. Here's their 21st Century list: http://www.theyshootpictures.com/21stce ... ms50-1.htm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:A Brighter Summer Day.

I actually recorded this off of TCM a few weeks ago but my father deleted the recording off of the DVR and refused to confess despite my procuring of evidence he could have been the only to do have done so. I'll have to catch it another time.

The Hurt Locker (2010) - I really don't get the love for this film. Other than its unusual subject, it's still a pretty typical and cliched war film in every respect.

Yeah I'm not really on the Bigelow train either. If we had to have one of her films Zero Dark Thirty might be the better choice.

Cache (or any Haneke) - Again, I'm not a big Haneke fan (and I'd probably include The Piano Teacher if I had to pick one), but not to have any is strange.

I'm with Derrived in that The White Ribbon is what I'd go with. Seems especially relevant now with the current state of the world.

The Tree of Life - Certainly one of the 4-5 most ambitious films of this century.

Lost in Translation - Definitely one of my favorites from this century and a critical darling.

Y Tu Mama Tambien - Just a great, great film from start to finish.

I agree about these three, though I'm still only like 90% on Tree of Life. I still go back and forth on the cosmic stuff in that film- rest is great though.

Finally, the only film list that really matters are the meta-lists done by Theyshootpictures. Here's their 21st Century list: http://www.theyshootpictures.com/21stce ... ms50-1.htm

Perhaps but I thought it might be fun to talk about this NYT one and how odd it kind of is.

Derived Absurdity wrote:What's wrong with Hayao Miyazaki?

His stuff and Ghibli in general doesn't really work for me, at least based on what I've seen. They've all kind of left me feeling cold, except for Takahata's Grave of the Fireflies.

Like I can't look at something like The Wind Rises and not feel that the love story with the sick wife was invented for anything but entirely cynical reasons.

Raxivace wrote:

Eva Yojimbo wrote:A Brighter Summer Day.

I actually recorded this off of TCM a few weeks ago but my father deleted the recording off of the DVR and refused to confess despite my procuring of evidence he could have been the only to do have done so. I'll have to catch it another time.

Just buy the Criterion blu-ray for both it and Yi Yi. They're really worth it. Besides the films, both have excellent commentaries as well, especially the one for ABSD which is one of the most insightful I've ever heard. I still like Yi Yi a bit better because it hit more of an emotional chord with me, but ABSD is probably the more brilliant film with more depth. They're both absolute 10/10s though.

Raxivace wrote:I'm with Derrived in that The White Ribbon is what I'd go with. Seems especially relevant now with the current state of the world.

I expected to like TWR more than I did, but it just didn't leave much of an impression on me outside of the rather haunting cinematography. The narrative just left me cold... and colder than usual even for Haneke. I actually think his aesthetic works well for "thrillers" like Cache or The Piano Teacher where they can build to something really climactic, and I give the edge to TPT thanks to Huppert's amazing character and performance.

Raxivace wrote:

The Tree of Life - Certainly one of the 4-5 most ambitious films of this century.

Lost in Translation - Definitely one of my favorites from this century and a critical darling.

Y Tu Mama Tambien - Just a great, great film from start to finish.

I agree about these three, though I'm still only like 90% on Tree of Life. I still go back and forth on the cosmic stuff in that film- rest is great though.

I'm still only about 90% on TOL myself.

Raxivace wrote:Like I can't look at something like The Wind Rises and not feel that the love story with the sick wife was invented for anything but entirely cynical reasons.

I remember us talking about it back on IMDb, but I don't recall you saying this about the sick wife. Care to elaborate?

The Tree of Life and Lost in Translation are two movies that were so maddeningly boring I couldn't finish them.

wrong

BruceSmith78 wrote:The Tree of Life and Lost in Translation are two movies that were so maddeningly boring I couldn't finish them.

I can understand people finding TOL boring because of Malick's utterly unique aesthetic and meditative/transcendental approach to filmmaking; but unless you're an action junkie or hate romantic comedies I can't imagine finding Lost in Translation boring.

Lost in Translation was supposed to be comedy but completely failed at humor. I just remember a bored Bill Murray having a boring conversation with a bored ScarJo in a bar or something, and I was like fuck this, I can't do it.

i think Bruce just hates emotions

Barring the obvious favorites (Yi Yi, TWBB, SA),I'm particularly pleased with the inclusion of Boyhood, Inside Out, Timbuktu and Inside Llewyn Davis (although yeah, ASM is even better).

I also thought Flight of the Red Balloon is the better Hou film, but I did really like Three Times and its tripartite structure. I guess I'm just happy with any Hou representation.

I'm with Rax on the exclusion of TWR, which I need to see again at some point because I can't remember much outside the unsettling black and white cinematography and the fact I really liked it.

I'm not sure what Million Dollar Baby and The Hurt Locker are doing on this list.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:

Raxivace wrote:I'm with Derrived in that The White Ribbon is what I'd go with. Seems especially relevant now with the current state of the world.

I expected to like TWR more than I did, but it just didn't leave much of an impression on me outside of the rather haunting cinematography. The narrative just left me cold... and colder than usual even for Haneke. I actually think his aesthetic works well for "thrillers" like Cache or The Piano Teacher where they can build to something really climactic, and I give the edge to TPT thanks to Huppert's amazing character and performance.

Have you seen Elle? I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that.

BTW, it's been so long since I've seen (or thought about) The Piano Teacher that I totally forgot Huppert was the lead until you mentioned her right now.

BruceSmith78 wrote:Lost in Translation was supposed to be comedy but completely failed at humor. I just remember a bored Bill Murray having a boring conversation with a bored ScarJo in a bar or something, and I was like fuck this, I can't do it.

Well, it's not JUST a comedy. Probably its greatest triumph is that it really nails what it's like to be lost and alone (both literally and figuratively, as in both characters are having something of an existential crisis) in an alien culture. The impressionistic use of cinematography, music, and editing is ravishing IMO, and something that's extremely rare in mainstream cinema (not all that common outside it). I guess if you're only approaching it from a plot perspective, waiting for something big or important to happen, then you could be bored and completely miss out on the magic that's happening tonally and aesthetically. Despite the romantic comedy surface it's really more of a cinematic tone poem.

maz89 wrote:Have you seen Elle? I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that.

BTW, it's been so long since I've seen (or thought about) The Piano Teacher that I totally forgot Huppert was the lead until you mentioned her right now.

I have not.

I'm amazed you could forget about her performance. It would make my top 10 list of the best performances this century (and no, I'm not sure what the others would be!).

maz89 wrote:Barring the obvious favorites (Yi Yi, TWBB, SA),I'm particularly pleased with the inclusion of Boyhood, Inside Out, Timbuktu and Inside Llewyn Davis (although yeah, ASM is even better).

NCFOM > ASM > ILD

What's Timbuktu like? It's one of the few on the list I haven't seen.

maz89 wrote:I also thought Flight of the Red Balloon is the better Hou film, but I did really like Three Times and its tripartite structure. I guess I'm just happy with any Hou representation.

Flight of the Red Balloon has perhaps the most ingenious use of color symbolism I've ever seen in a film. Did I ever let you read my review/analysis of it?

Three Times is still a great and I still gave it an 8/10 (only mature Hou I rated lower was Boys from Fengkuei at a 7.5/10), but its three parts are basically a remake of three of his other films: Dust in the Wind, Flowers of Shanghai, and Millennium Mambo, all of which I think are better because they're more fleshed out. Three Times makes a good intro to Hou though, because a first time viewer would have a better idea of what film of his to see next depending on which section they liked.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I'm amazed you could forget about her performance. It would make my top 10 list of the best performances this century (and no, I'm not sure what the others would be!).

I know. I guess I didn't love The Piano Teacher as much as you did. That usual Haneke complaint: it left me cold. But I saw it so long ago and it would probably be worth seeing again since I've generally really liked the Haneke films I've seen after that.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:NCFOM > ASM > ILD

For me, it goes like ASM > ILD > NCFOM. *braces for impact*

Again, I saw NCFOM back in 2007 and I have never revisited it since. I didn't know the Coens back then so it might just play very differently today.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:What's Timbuktu like? It's one of the few on the list I haven't seen.

A picturesque, slow paced film that depicts the reign of the self-proclaimed religious extremist "jihadi" rulers in a small city and what it means for the city's inhabitants. Without spoiling too much, I will say that it accurately portrays how religion is misused to control those who are innocent and helpless, and how these extremists (who have little idea of the religion) offer the illusion of justice under the guise of God's word. What makes it memorable, though, is Sissako's visual nuance. There are so many mesmerizing, evocative shots in the film - and one, in particular that occurs in the film's centerpiece sequence that was particularly breath-taking (you'll know it when you see it). I gave it a 7.5 at the time but it's aged really well in my mind.

EvaYojimbo wrote:Flight of the Red Balloon has perhaps the most ingenious use of color symbolism I've ever seen in a film. Did I ever let you read my review/analysis of it?

I actually did, but I don't remember much of it now. Link me.

EvaYojimbo wrote:Three Times is still a great and I still gave it an 8/10 (only mature Hou I rated lower was Boys from Fengkuei at a 7.5/10), but its three parts are basically a remake of three of his other films: Dust in the Wind, Flowers of Shanghai, and Millennium Mambo, all of which I think are better because they're more fleshed out. Three Times makes a good intro to Hou though, because a first time viewer would have a better idea of what film of his to see next depending on which section they liked.

I've never actually thought of it like that. And good to know that even a lesser Hou film scores a 'good' 8. Speaking of Hou, I thought The Assassin was intoxicating for its stillness and serenity, even if I didn't understand how exactly the characters were related to each other half the time. It was unusually opaque, even by Hou standards.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Just buy the Criterion blu-ray for both it and Yi Yi.

I might do that during the next sale. Or I might not. Or instead I might do something entirely unrelated like going up to a random stranger at the Barnes & Noble and forcing them to answer some riddles three. You never know.

I actually think his aesthetic works well for "thrillers" like Cache or The Piano Teacher where they can build to something really climactic, and I give the edge to TPT thanks to Huppert's amazing character and performance.

Piano Teacher is probably the most major Haneke I haven't seen. Gotta get to that one too. With The White Ribbon his aesthetic just really worked for me, and I liked how the basic story was actually kind of subtle for once (Like they never blatantly say the movie is about the Nazis IIRC) after how didactic I found Funny Games and Cache.

I remember us talking about it back on IMDb, but I don't recall you saying this about the sick wife. Care to elaborate?

Without repeating myself from a few years ago too much, it basically comes down to my view that the wife character is little more than an underwritten demure perfect stereotype throughout the film plus knowing that the TB plotpoint was completely invented for the movie. It just very much seems like a cheap and the least interesting way of generating drama from that historical subject matter- like illness is being used as a substitute for characterization.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Well, it's not JUST a comedy. Probably its greatest triumph is that it really nails what it's like to be lost and alone (both literally and figuratively, as in both characters are having something of an existential crisis) in an alien culture. The impressionistic use of cinematography, music, and editing is ravishing IMO, and something that's extremely rare in mainstream cinema (not all that common outside it). I guess if you're only approaching it from a plot perspective, waiting for something big or important to happen, then you could be bored and completely miss out on the magic that's happening tonally and aesthetically. Despite the romantic comedy surface it's really more of a cinematic tone poem.

Yeah, I don't watch movies for tone or aesthetics. I don't know what it even means to say a movie has great tone, to be honest. I don't like poetry either, so if this was a cinematic tone poem that explains why I wouldn't like it.

As far as aesthetics, if I want to look at something pretty I'll use google, not watch a movie. I watch movies for entertainment.

maz89 wrote:I know. I guess I didn't love The Piano Teacher as much as you did. That usual Haneke complaint: it left me cold. But I saw it so long ago and it would probably be worth seeing again since I've generally really liked the Haneke films I've seen after that.

Here was my review, fwiw: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/336773/F ... ly/#336773

maz89 wrote:For me, it goes like ASM > ILD > NCFOM. *braces for impact*

Again, I saw NCFOM back in 2007 and I have never revisited it since. I didn't know the Coens back then so it might just play very differently today.

Definitely see it again. I think it's their "dramatic" masterpiece, only second in their overall filmography to The Big Lebowski for me. I also think NCFOM and ASM are rather companion films, both dealing with the theme of uncertainty. My old reviews may still be up on cinelogue somewhere...

Yep: NCFOM and ASM

maz89 wrote:

Eva Yojimbo wrote:What's Timbuktu like? It's one of the few on the list I haven't seen.

A picturesque, slow paced film that depicts the reign of the self-proclaimed religious extremist "jihadi" rulers in a small city and what it means for the city's inhabitants. Without spoiling too much, I will say that it accurately portrays how religion is misused to control those who are innocent and helpless, and how these extremists (who have little idea of the religion) offer the illusion of justice under the guise of God's word. What makes it memorable, though, is Sissako's visual nuance. There are so many mesmerizing, evocative shots in the film - and one, in particular that occurs in the film's centerpiece sequence that was particularly breath-taking (you'll know it when you see it). I gave it a 7.5 at the time but it's aged really well in my mind.

Sounds interesting, and vaguely like Theo Angelopoulos's Alexander the Great, though it was less heavy on the religious aspect.

maz89 wrote:

EvaYojimbo wrote:Flight of the Red Balloon has perhaps the most ingenious use of color symbolism I've ever seen in a film. Did I ever let you read my review/analysis of it?

I actually did, but I don't remember much of it now. Link me.

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/361974/F ... -2/#361974 Color stuff starts a bit more than halfway into it.

maz89 wrote:

EvaYojimbo wrote:Three Times is still a great and I still gave it an 8/10 (only mature Hou I rated lower was Boys from Fengkuei at a 7.5/10), but its three parts are basically a remake of three of his other films: Dust in the Wind, Flowers of Shanghai, and Millennium Mambo, all of which I think are better because they're more fleshed out. Three Times makes a good intro to Hou though, because a first time viewer would have a better idea of what film of his to see next depending on which section they liked.

I've never actually thought of it like that. And good to know that even a lesser Hou film scores a 'good' 8. Speaking of Hou, I thought The Assassin was intoxicating for its stillness and serenity, even if I didn't understand how exactly the characters were related to each other half the time. It was unusually opaque, even by Hou standards.

"Intoxicating stillness and serenity" is a perfect encapsulation of The Assassin. It's definitely opaque, though I think I was watching quite a bit of 80s Godard around the time I saw it so it didn't stand out so much in that regard!

Raxivace wrote:

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Just buy the Criterion blu-ray for both it and Yi Yi.

I might do that during the next sale. Or I might not. Or instead I might do something entirely unrelated like going up to a random stranger at the Barnes & Noble and forcing them to answer some riddles three. You never know.

I say buy them and do the riddles three thing. :)

Raxivace wrote:Without repeating myself from a few years ago too much, it basically comes down to my view that the wife character is little more than an underwritten demure perfect stereotype throughout the film plus knowing that the TB plotpoint was completely invented for the movie. It just very much seems like a cheap and the least interesting way of generating drama from that historical subject matter- like illness is being used as a substitute for characterization.

I remember you saying this, I just wasn't connecting it with your "cynical" description. If anything this sounds like "lazy sentimentality" or something. I remember saying at the time that, historically, the "demure housewife" would've been accurate for Japanese society, but I can agree to an extent that her character was rather shallow.

BruceSmith78 wrote:Yeah, I don't watch movies for tone or aesthetics. I don't know what it even means to say a movie has great tone, to be honest. I don't like poetry either, so if this was a cinematic tone poem that explains why I wouldn't like it.

As far as aesthetics, if I want to look at something pretty I'll use google, not watch a movie. I watch movies for entertainment.

Everyone watches movies for entertainment, it's just a question of what entertains us. I mean, I can be entertained by your more typical plot-driven films, but there's the old adage that there's only a handful of stories and they've all been told countless times. So I tend to be far more entertained and interested when they're told well, or even de-emphasized in order to focus on other aspects. Personally, I think it's a shame more people can't appreciate some films just for their beauty; Google's got nothing on the best films in this regard (unless you're looking for great paintings and such).

As for tone, I defer to Kubrick: “A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later."

I just take "tone" to mean something you intuitively feel even if you don't have a typical emotive word for it. It's what you feel when you listen to music, especially instrumental music where you don't have lyrics for a tonal guide.

In that case, Lost in Translation's tone was boring, cuz that's what it made me feel.

(I'm being a troll now, I know, but for real, that shit was boring as fuck)

BruceSmith78 wrote:In that case, Lost in Translation's tone was boring, cuz that's what it made me feel.