Winter is Here

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:45 pm

@Rax - You've never seen Mighty Ducks? Or Skulls? Or Dawson's Creek? Or Fringe?

@Maz - I totally see the resemblance, but I hadn't noticed it before.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:50 pm

I maybe saw Mighty Ducks back when I was a little kid, but I don't really remember it. Can't say I've seen any of those other things.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:32 am

Bruce, to add to your list, he's also currently starring in The Affair, which had a decent first two seasons.

Rax, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with Fringe. JJ Abrams was involved so the Lost fanboy in me decided to check it out. It was a'ight but it didn't stick.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Everyone I knew that watched it said something like "Fringe is good but the first season is bad" so I just never really checked it out, since those kinds of comments always ring alarm bells for me.

Then again I know a lot of people that said The Leftovers is good but that it had a bad first season, and I thought the first season of that was the best by far so you never know.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:19 am

Just started watching this season and I'm pleasantly surprised to see the plot is advancing much quicker than I expected. After dragging things out for so long, they've decided to rush the ending.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:25 am

I'm glad that the show has acknowledged that Dany is unambiguously evil. Good episode IMO.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:05 pm

They went full 'Magnificent Seven' at the end last night.

And I can see how the Cleganebowl is gonna happen.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:22 pm

Raxivace wrote:I'm glad that the show has acknowledged that Dany is unambiguously evil.

Was burning two captured enemies alive worse than when she crucified all those dudes back in Slaver's Bay?

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:18 pm

I'd argue it was worse because those dudes were into slavery so it was easier to justify (for each life she took, she set hundreds free)... These guys, on the other hand, refused to bend to Dany's will, who shunned the advice of Jon and Tyrion from last week (and instead took Olenna's) and burned them to a crisp, making her no different than Cersei. How ironic that she started out her monologue by saying otherwise. This is also at complete odds with the speech Misandei gave to Jon about how Dany's followers truly believe in her, that they are not ruled by fear. And now they will be. Road to hell, good intentions, etc.

Which is a good development, I think. Hard to stomach, yeah, but as acknowledged, good and evil should remain complicated/entangled/muddled in GoT. The purely good people can only be the ones who're not playing the game.

God, I loved Arya's brutal take down of Sansa. Does someone know what's happening with the scroll that Littlefinger plants for Arya? He's trying to cause a rift between the sisters, and create a situation which he can capitalize on to become King of the North, right? Fuck that.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Dany is actually worse than Cersei.

Cersei is still pretty bad and probably needs to die, but at least she doesn't have an army of rapists she's using to invade a foreign country.

maz89 wrote:Does someone know what's happening with the scroll that Littlefinger plants for Arya?

That's actually the scroll from like season 1 that Cersei forced Sansa to write denouncing Ned. Littlefinger is trying to paint Sansa as some kind of power hungry idiot that would betray the Northerners and more specifically Jon in Arya's eyes.

It could work too since Arya's kind of an idiot.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Cersei and Dany are both ruthless...but in different ways. I don't think Dany would be okay with her armies raping people...I think she has a kinder heart than Cersei. But I'll agree that they are more similar than people might think. They are both fiercely loyal to their family/family name and protective of their "babies"(protective in a scary way).

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:38 pm

^Some friends I watch the show with still think Dany's "good" heart makes her radically different. Their defense is that she doesn't have the luxury of keeping men in chains, and letting them go wasn't an option as they'd come back again. I guess that justifies death by dragon fire, lol.

Raxivace wrote:That's actually the scroll from like season 1 that Cersei forced Sansa to write denouncing Ned. Littlefinger is trying to paint Sansa as some kind of power hungry idiot that would betray the Northerners and more specifically Jon in Arya's eyes.

It could work too since Arya's kind of an idiot.

Hey now, you can criticize any of the 118 characters in GoT but you'd better leave Arya out of this. Girl's been through hell.

I hope she's learned enough from her time in Braavos to be able to see through Baelish's bullshit scheming.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:35 am

I mean when the Faceless Men were after Arya last season, she thought just chilling out in the daylight was a good idea. I like her character but she's still a still a Stark at the end of the day and they're not too bright.

Sansa might be the most sensible one of that lot, which is saying something. Bran might have more useful and important knowledge than her overall but well...

At least he mentioned the Walkers eventually.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:41 am

Hahah, I saw that meme last week. All that time in isolation has seriously stunted Bran's social skills... Oh well, we should all be grateful that he isn't engaging in Dougie speak...

Raxivace wrote:I mean when the Faceless Men were after Arya last season, she thought just chilling out in the daylight was a good idea. I like her character but she's still a still a Stark at the end of the day and they're not too bright.

Lol. I'd still argue she isn't your typical Stark. Her vengeful, merciless killing mode makes her unlike the pious Ned... and more like Cersei and Dany. And, hey, despite her dumb thinking that she'd be safe in broad daylight in the middle of a bloody market (more like dumb writing), the fact is that she survived that run-in by later cleverly playing to her strengths.

Sansa has definitely become more politically astute from her time with Cersei. She may be more cleverer than Ned was (remember the time he blurted to Cersei everything he knew?). But as much as Sansa would like to think that she's in control of her current situation, I think she fails to see that she's being outwitted by Baelish. They all are.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:34 am

Dude if Bran were Dougie Jones the war would already be over, Dany and Cersei would have learned to set aside their differences and get married, Littlefinger would have confessed to all of his crimes out of shame, Bronn would get the casltes he's owed, the dragons would solo the entire White Walker army as a personal favor, Hot Pie would become a famous baker of cherry pies and would invent coffee, and then the episode would end with a live musical performance from Ed Sheeran.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:41 am

A mere moment before Sheeran's song ends "STARRING ISAAC HEMPSTEAD-WRIGHT" would pop onscreen and it would feel bittersweet.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:57 am

^I think I want to watch this show instead!

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:17 pm

maz89 wrote:I'd argue it was worse because those dudes were into slavery so it was easier to justify (for each life she took, she set hundreds free)... These guys, on the other hand, refused to bend to Dany's will

Yeah, maybe more justifiable, although some of those guys might have been trying to take down slavery from within the system, but I also think executing prisoners is no better than murder, and the method of execution in Slaver's Bay was even more savage. If given the choice, I'd choose to be incinerated in a couple of seconds over being staked to a post and left to suffer and slowly die in the sun.

I just don't completely agree that the show "finally acknowledged Dany is unambiguously evil" last night. Hell, back in season one she roasted a woman alive, and the woman's only crime was to kill the leader of the horde that had raped her, murdered her people and pillaged her village.

They just played up Dany's cold-bloodedness a little more in this episode, showing Tyrion's dismay and the fear of the remaining Lannister forces for dramatic effect. I think it worked, but Dany's actions didn't reveal anything new about her character in my opinion.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:00 am

Yeah...I wasn't surprised by the executions either because we've seen this ruthless side of Dany before. But the difference between Dany and Cersei is that it's just a side of Dany...I think she can be a bit of a softy deep down, and she just tries to be tough because that is what her "destiny" requires of her. Cersei is thoroughly ruthless.

Post by **OpiateOfTheMasses** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:52 am

If executing two people (who would only come back to fight her anyway) sends a message to others and discourages/demoralises them then it may well save lives in the long run. War is a nasty process and people will die - it's all in question of minimising casualties.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:55 am

I think it's worth remembering that the show's stance is very much that these kinds of executions are wrong- most of the major characters that have ordered or performed these kinds of executions have ended up killed (Or worse) themselves. It's a pretty consistent pattern in this show- Robert Baratheon, Eddard, Robb, Joffrey, Jon, Theon, Tywin, Stannis, Lysa, Walder Frey etc.

Dany (And Jon probably again) are going to get some kind of cosmic comeuppance, and they're probably not going to be the only ones. No matter how appealing revolutionary rhetoric Dany wraps herself in about "breaking the wheel" is, we're also often reminded that "words are wind" for a reason.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

Also S7E6 has leaked online- in HD to boot. Watch out for spoilers y'all.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:33 am

I'm fuming right now. Some asshole posted an auto-playing gif of a major episode 6 sequence in the comments section of some GoT episode 5 review.

There's a special place in hell reserved for such people.

In HD? Tempting...

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:46 am

Yeah if people are leaking spoilers like that I think I'll just give it a watch now and then again when it properly airs.

Apparently some Spanish channel aired it accidentally. Same thing happened in Germany with the most recent Twin Peaks episode, ironically enough.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:29 pm

Right, one of the opening scenes of the show is Ned(the "good guy") executing an innocent man. I believe even Jon has executed a person simply for being defiant. So within that context, I'm not sure why people are surprised by Dany's decision...and see it as something particularly evil.

And what's the deal with Gendry anyway? Is he supposed to have a serious claim to the throne(at least, within the order/lineage established by the Baratheons and Lannisters when they took over)? I thought he had no claim, being a bastard and all, but I guess since Robert's brothers are dead - and has no non-bastard children - that makes Gendry legitimate? I never read the books and don't follow some of these storylines too closely.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:03 pm

Well, I watched the episode. That's all I'll say about that. Because I'm not an asshole.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:45 pm

They just played up Dany's cold-bloodedness a little more in this episode, showing Tyrion's dismay and the fear of the remaining Lannister forces for dramatic effect. I think it worked, but Dany's actions didn't reveal anything new about her character in my opinion.

Cassius Clay wrote:Right, one of the opening scenes of the show is Ned(the "good guy") executing an innocent man. I believe even Jon has executed a person simply for being defiant. So within that context, I'm not sure why people are surprised by Dany's decision...and see it as something particularly evil.

Both you and Bruce are, of course, right about how Dany's actions shouldn't have come as a surprise. In the moral construct of this world, the "good" guys have murdered in the past.

And yet, I always felt like those killings were in the service of some widely accepted law/belief and they never felt quite as... arbitrary. Ned executed that guy, sure, but that guy had broken his oath and if not Ned, someone else would have carried out that execution.

It's harder to mount a defense for Jon's killing of Olly because the little kid was dealt a terrible hand. While he was part of the crew that betrayed and killed Jon, Olly had seen his whole clan get viciously murdered by the wildlings so there was always a remote chance of him being okay with Jon's alliance with them. But just like his aunt/uncle, Jon's "principles" allowed for no mercy and no bending from the law of the land (an eye for an eye). Within the show's morality system, it still felt acceptable, regardless of how terrible it was. Sadly, these Stark/half-Stark "good" guys follow the rules, they don't change them.

But here, because of Tyrion's repeated insistence that Dany should figure out another way to deal with the disagreeable Tarly men (because it was within her power to do so), her decision to rashly incinerate them reminded me a bit of the escalating madness that saw Ned Stark get executed by Joffrey in season 1. I'm exaggerating here - Dany was always upfront about the "bend the knee or die" situation... remaining a prisoner was never an option. But the show uses this choice to strongly imply that Dany was being a lot more harsh than she should have been, within the show's own moral code for "good" guys.

Cassius Clay wrote:And what's the deal with Gendry anyway? Is he supposed to have a serious claim to the throne(at least, within the order/lineage established by the Baratheons and Lannisters when they took over)? I thought he had no claim, being a bastard and all, but I guess since Robert's brothers are dead - and has no non-bastard children - that makes Gendry legitimate? I never read the books and don't follow some of these storylines too closely.

I haven't read the books either but my guess is that since he isn't a trueborn son, his claim is weak. Which is why the revelation last week about Rhaeger getting his previous marriage annulled and marrying Lyanna Stark in a secret ceremony was a huge one. It officially made Jon a trueborn Targarayen.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:46 pm

Raxivace wrote:I think it's worth remembering that the show's stance is very much that these kinds of executions are wrong- most of the major characters that have ordered or performed these kinds of executions have ended up killed (Or worse) themselves. It's a pretty consistent pattern in this show- Robert Baratheon, Eddard, Robb, Joffrey, Jon, Theon, Tywin, Stannis, Lysa, Walder Frey etc.

Dany (And Jon probably again) are going to get some kind of cosmic comeuppance, and they're probably not going to be the only ones. No matter how appealing revolutionary rhetoric Dany wraps herself in about "breaking the wheel" is, we're also often reminded that "words are wind" for a reason.

I think you should see the leaked episode.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:18 pm

About the bastard thing, if there are no other true-born heirs, the bastards are next in line to take over their father's house.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:29 am

maz89 wrote: I think you should see the leaked episode.

I watched the episode.

We can PM about it to prevent others from getting spoiled.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:01 am

I guess I don't know how to use the internet. I tried to search for the leaked episode and all I ended up doing was stumbling across a spoiler. Fucking fuck.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:15 am

^Same thing happened to me, even though I wasn't even looking for the leaked episode. I know the feels. :(

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:26 am

I was able to download the episode but messed around online for quite a while first without spoiling myself before watching it.

Y'all need to step up your game.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:27 pm

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:45 pm

I wasn't referring to Olly and 'em(which was a bit more justified since they actually murdered him), but the guy(sent to the wall by Tyrion) who was being insubordinate when Jon became Lord Commander. Dude thought Jon was bluffing when he said "bring me my sword". I don't see it as that much morally different from Dany's decision to execute those guys. The show did seem to imply there was something kind of out of character about it, but I'd argue it implied the same with the other executions committed by "good" characters. And with them, it was also within their power to show mercy if they really wanted to.

What Bruce says about the bastard rule is what I assumed. When there's no one else the bastards are legitimized. Which means Gendry can take over House Baratheon. But does that mean he has a claim to the throne? If not, why would the Lannisters want him dead? If he is the rightful king of this new order/establishment, that adds an interesting layer to the meeting between him and Jon...and the war between the mad queens. Because Dany wants to restore the old order...and if she was consistent, she would have to support Jon as king. That makes neither queen rightful ruler of the establishments they are fighting for. Meanwhile the rightful kings of one or the other have lived most of their lives as unwanted bastards.

Edit: Also part of the reason Jon is even able to become King of the North is because it's assumed all the other Stark men are dead.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:21 am

Heads Up: Hackers claim to have a copy of the S7 finale and are threatening to release it. Be on the lookout if you're trying to remain spoiler free.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:34 am

Fill us with patience lord of series finales...'cause the web is dark and full of spoilers

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:26 am

You know I'm kind of surprised at how much negative reaction I've been seeing online toward Episode 6. Like yeah the Arya/Sansa stuff is kind of dumb but I thought the stuff beyond the Wall was fine and a lot of people seem to dislike that too.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:38 am

Yeah, I agree. Look, I know the whole "let's go kidnap a wight" plan was a bit outlandish (er... for a show with magic and dragons) and even rushed, but it wasn't unforgivably dumb or stupid. Yeah, they could have spent more time trying to set up the notion that nothing less than bringing a wight to King's Landing would convince Cersei & Co. to join the fight against ice and show us that Dany initially refused to bring her dragons anywhere close to Eastwatch as she was still divided on what to believe and a scene which depicted the soldiers' raven getting killed in the fighting match against the Zombie Bear (necessitating Gendry's run to Eastwatch later), but, ya know, suspension of disbelief comes with the territory, and the episode was thrilling and neatly sets up stakes for the finale, despite these omissions. Also, since when are all of the characters in the show expected to make rational, well-thought out decisions? Just because we're supposed to "like" Snow, he's supposed to become a smart military strategist? I've now lost count of the number of times he's been saved.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:08 am

Maybe the Wight plan would be better received if it was more clear that they're not just trying to convince Cersei but all of Westeros as well.

That's how it came off to me, but a lot of people seem to think its only Cersei they care about.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:15 am

maz89 wrote:Also, since when are all of the characters in the show expected to make rational, well-thought out decisions?

Frankly that's a topic bigger than just the Game of Thrones thread. You could probably write an entire book about different media that people have made these kinds of complaints about. Stuff like Game of Thrones or other zombie movies or sci-fi movies are one thing, but I remember on IMDb I used to see people throw those accusations at Grave of the Fireflies of all things too.

I'm not really quite sure how to talk about this topic but we could probably get a whole thread going about it.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:10 am

I didn't really care about a lot of the major complaints I've heard about these recent episodes. I just like how fast-paced it is right now. Like it's easy to infer - when a character seems to have arrived at a destination a little too quickly - that a lot more time has passed than it might appear. But I do agree that it's up to the writers/creators to communicate that clearly...and not just expect the audience to infer...because something like that can really take you out of the moment. The best part of the most recent episode was watching these storylines collide and seeing their entertaining interactions(especially Sandor and Tormund). Can't wait to see what happens next episode when Sandor likely runs into Brienne. Shiieeeeet, Cleganebowl might even happen much quicker than I expected.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:55 am

This is potentially a spoiler, but it's really just fan theory at this point, albeit solidly based on evidence.

So if you're reading this, what do you all think of the theory that Arya knows Littlefinger's trying to play her, and she and Sansa are setting a trap for Littlefinger? A popular theory is that they will set him up and kill him, and then Arya will 'become him' so she can command the Knights of the Vale. I think it makes a lot of sense, and explains why Arya handed the dagger to Sansa at the end of their last interaction. Part of the theory is that Bran told the girls that Littlefinger betrayed their father, which led to his death and the war that brought them both so much hardship.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:27 am

The problem with that theory is that there doesn't seem to be anything in the episode that suggests Arya and/or Sansa know they're being watched or that they're even being watched by Littlefinger or a spy or whatever at all. Their entire scene is shot like its entirely private.

It still is possible but that would be a really schlocky kind of twist if it relies on something not actually depicted to the audience.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:08 pm

The theory posits that they are speaking loudly intentionally, and the door's open so one could assume Littlefinger or one of his spies is eavesdropping. Arya's the type of character that would know when she's being followed or watched. They wouldn't want to make it obvious for the audience, or it wouldn't feel like a twist when they reveal that the girls have been playing Littlefinger for a fool. My biggest problem with it is if Arya wanted Littlefinger dead, why wouldn't she just wait until he's alone and cut his throat? Unless she wants Sansa to see that he's plotting against her. *shrugs*. Do you have another idea for why Arya handed Sansa the dagger?

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:59 pm

I think this fan theory makes sense. It also helps make Arya a non-idiot again, so I'll take it. We know Littlefinger has spies everywhere and maybe that's why Arya was being discreet with what she was actually positing when she tells Sansa she could become "anyone". Then she hands Sansa that dagger and gets her point across.

BruceSmith78 wrote:My biggest problem with it is if Arya wanted Littlefinger dead, why wouldn't she just wait until he's alone and cut his throat? Unless she wants Sansa to see that he's plotting against her. *shrugs*.

Yeah, she wants Sansa to be on board with the plan first. Maybe they want to lure Littlefinger toward an admission of guilt? Whatever it is, it'd better be well set-up and convincing.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:44 pm

I was gonna say Arya was impersonating Brienne, but then I realized you can only impersonate people you've killed...I think.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:28 am

Well y'all were right about the Sansa/Arya stuff. I still maintain it was a badly handled plotline however.

Rest of the episode was good. I legit thought Jaime was about to die there, though I'm curious as to what he'll be up to now.

Blue dragon fire was cool.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:23 pm

I'm just glad Arya says "I wouldn't have been able to survive what you did" to Sansa. Or something to that effect. God. To think the three kids never sat down to talk about what they'd been through was utterly stupid.

It's far more believable to imagine they hatched this little scheme back when they first met by that ancient tree, and the rest that the audience/Littlefinger has seen has just been their ploy to confirm Littlefinger's crooked intentions (not that they needed it, really, with Bran being the Three Eyed Raven). Playing the Arya/Sansa rivalry was silly from the get-go so yeah, I'll take this "twist", although I'd also have been quite okay if the show played it straight and wrapped up this thread in one episode. Still... satisfying to watch, even if formulaic.

Of course, my favorite part was when Samwell Tarly goes "Oh!" (pause) "Sorry, I'm not sure what that means". I think I might be Sam Tarly in the real world.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:36 pm

Yeah I guess I just didn't find anything about Littlefinger's death to be at all satisfying. Even if it is a predictable outcome, it doesn't really feel earned by the build up to it to me.

To me its sort of like reading a bad mystery novel where none of the clues really seem to fairly and reasonably point to the culprit but he still ends up being the butler anyways.