The Pitters' Place

.....

It's still true!

Though I now see a lot less of a distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism. The actual point on which they disagree is pretty much irrelevant to how one actually lives life as a Christian.

I have no clue what Calvinism is, and I'm too lazy to look it up

Calvinism is a predeterministic worldview that basically says God already knows everything that will happen from the start, including who will go to hell and who won't.

Arminianism does not believe in that determinism. This may take the form of believing that God's omnipotence may instead involve foreknowledge of all possible futures, while our actions still determine the actual path we take. Or the belief in the co-existence of that free will and God's omnipotence of the singular future, similar to how if I travel to the future and see stuff, it doesn't mean that the people responsible for that stuff had no free will in doing them. This ends up similar to Calvinism in practice, which is probably what Gendo is referring to.

Spoiler alert, Calvinism is the only way an omnipotent, omniscient creator makes any sense. God just created play things and enjoys punishing some of them for turning out exactly as He created them.

My stance is that omnipotent and omniscient are more relative terms than absolute. I don't think it's possible for any entity to be truly omnipotent or omniscient, but neither do I think those are required traits to be a deity. I've always interpreted it as God being all-powerful only from a human point of view, similar to how an ant might view a human with the ability to make food appear out of nowhere, teleport them across vast distances in seconds and squash them at whim.

The Bible itself makes many suggestions that God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, so I'm a bit curious where that idea even came from.

Anakin McFly wrote:Calvinism is a predeterministic worldview that basically says God already knows everything that will happen from the start, including who will go to hell and who won't.

Arminianism does not believe in that determinism. This may take the form of believing that God's omnipotence may instead involve foreknowledge of all possible futures, while our actions still determine the actual path we take. Or the belief in the co-existence of that free will and God's omnipotence of the singular future, similar to how if I travel to the future and see stuff, it doesn't mean that the people responsible for that stuff had no free will in doing them. This ends up similar to Calvinism in practice, which is probably what Gendo is referring to.

I don't agree with all of this, on a couple points... Calvinists are not necessarily determinists. I still believe in free will; that the things I do are done by free choice. The Calvinism part is very specifically related to the question of salvation... that I was compelled (through irresistible grace) to accept Christ. And similarly that because of sin, mankind is depraved to the point that they would never turn to God on their own, without God making that move.

So in other words, free will exists, and is responsible for the things we do. But accepting Christ would be akin to flying; something we can't/won't do on our own despite having free will.

I've often used that time travel analogy and agree strongly with it... seeing someone do something in the future shouldn't in any way impact whether they freely chose to do that thing. You're just an observer at that point.

What I really meant by no meaningful difference is simply that neither being an Arminian nor being a Calvinist has any real impact on what a Christian life looks like. Calvinists still preach the Gospel to the unsaved. Arminians still pray for the unsaved to become saved. My church isn't a "Calvinist" church, though most of our members and pastors probably lean that way.

So it's basically Christianity, only even more depressing. Okay then.

I should say I only meant for my OP to be a jokey, messing-around, friendly banter kind of post. I didn't intend for it to turn into anything more than that. Just wanted to make that clear, Gendo.

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

Too late to take it back now. We have to have a serious religious debate, complete with personal insults and references to Hitler.

You mean 'Heiter.'

So it's basically Christianity, only even more depressing.

^this.