The Last Jedi (probably spoilers)

[Boomer]

Hey Star Wars, Game of Thrones called, they want their "killing off main characters for shock-value" back.

Feeling lukewarm at best about this flick right now.

[Faustus5]

I personally loved it, but I thought it would have been a much better film if they had taken out 20 - 25 minutes of the Finn/Rose stuff. I love both of their characters, but (very minor spoiler ahead), their side story literally amounted to nothing and was quite boring. I think Johnson just couldn't figure out what to do with Finn since he wouldn't have been relevant to the main story arc with Luke/Rey/Ren, but he wanted to give the character time, so he invented a pointless story for Finn that ultimately contributed nothing.

[CashRules]

Did that main character at least get to speak this time?

[Boomer]

Did that main character at least get to speak this time?

Yes, he gets to speak. Is it anything of substance? Not really.

I personally loved it, but I thought it would have been a much better film if they had taken out 20 - 25 minutes of the Finn/Rose stuff. I love both of their characters, but (very minor spoiler ahead), their side story literally amounted to nothing and was quite boring. I think Johnson just couldn't figure out what to do with Finn since he wouldn't have been relevant to the main story arc with Luke/Rey/Ren, but he wanted to give the character time, so he invented a pointless story for Finn that ultimately contributed nothing.

I think in general it's a decent sci-fi movie, while at the same time it's a bad Star Wars movie, if that makes any sense.

[Faustus5]

Did that main character at least get to speak this time?

I think in general it's a decent sci-fi movie, while at the same time it's a bad Star Wars movie, if that makes any sense.

I actually think it is one of the best Star Wars movies. Then again, I've been a huge fan since the first one came out when I was a teen, so I'm inclined to just eat this stuff up. (Not the prequels so much.)

[Raxivace]

Just came out of Last Jedi, liked it overall. It seemed a little more inspired than Force Awakens or Rogue One did to me.

Hey Star Wars, Game of Thrones called, they want their "killing off main characters for shock-value" back.

There have been more Star Wars films that kill of main characters than ones that don't. Off of the top of my head Episodes IV, VI, I, III, VII, Rouge One, and now VIII kill off mains. Interestingly, only Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones seem not to really do that, unless I'm forgetting something obvious (Or you wanted to count Jango Fett as a main character for some reason).

[Raxivace]

I love both of their characters, but (very minor spoiler ahead), their side story literally amounted to nothing and was quite boring

Finn and Rose are a counterpoint to Kylo's ideology. Kylo talks about the need to destroy the cycle of violence that the variations of the Sith/Rebel conflict bring about (Consider how the movie correctly paints the First Order and the Resistance as the same thing), but instead of taking the correct moral stance that there's a need for a third path beyond them that's authentically good, he merely wants to come out on top.

Meanwhile Finn and Rose are interested in freeing enslaved children, something never done in Star Wars before despite multiple characters having backgrounds in slavery. Optimistically, they'll redeem Leia's Flawed Rebellion with one that is just and not about repeating the flaws of the past.

[Anakin McFly]

I liked it a lot. Definitely more than Rogue One, which I never quite got the hype for. and I love the porg collective.

Feeling lukewarm

I see what you did there.

[Raxivace]

The best part about Rogue One were those dopey articles about how it "revealed" that the movies with the word "War" in the title were shockingly about War.

[Faustus5]

Meanwhile Finn and Rose are interested in freeing enslaved children, something never done in Star Wars before despite multiple characters having backgrounds in slavery. Optimistically, they'll redeem Leia's Flawed Rebellion with one that is just and not about repeating the flaws of the past.

The execution was the problem, not the goal of Johnson as a writer.

[Raxivace]

What is wrong with the execution?

Like its not the best sequence I've ever seen in a film or anything but nothing seemed very egregious about it to me.

[Faustus5]

I was just completely bored every time the narration went to the gambling planet--and I've noticed that this is a pretty common complaint about the movie. I liked the intention, but thought he should have gone about it in a much leaner way.

[Gendo]

I basically agree with Faustus. Finn and Rose accomplished about as much as Indiana Jones did in Raiders. Which is to say nothing... the outcome would have been about the same had they stood around and done nothing instead. Actually, the outcome would have been better; all the escape cruisers would have made it safely to the new base.

But I liked it over all. Longer than it needed to be. I thought it was ending when the escape cruisers were on the way to the new base. Then there was 20-25 more minutes.

[Monk]

I might be in the minority, but I absolutely loved TFA. I know it had a lot of fan service and people complain that it was mostly just a remake of ANH (I still say Lucas did this first with RotJ). TLJ was like the anti-TFA. It didn't care about fan service. At all. It was arguably the boldest film of the franchise, tearing down decades of Star Wars tropes and hero worship. It disregarded all of those mystery boxes left by JJ. I personally loved Rey's parentage reveal and the way they killed off Snoke, revealing that Kylo really is the main baddie of this series. He's not a pawn of a bigger, more evil character. I was truly shocked by the some of the choices.

I admit, the way they treated Luke was hard for me. It's depressing to see how much he changed from the hopeful idealist to the cynical, bitter old man he becomes. But he had the best story arc in TLJ of all the characters in all the movies before, in my opinion.

I agree that Canto Bight casino sequence is by far the weakest. I like the message they were trying to send here. Instead of the Mos Eisley, where the scum of the universe are your low-class smugglers, thieves, etc, the real villains are the rich who prey on the poor. It also highlights that revolutions exist because of these low-class people though. The problem was that it was a little heavy handed, and the CGI....horse....things felt straight from the prequels. Still, I think it'll pay off in the next film.

All in all, I think this film will ultimately be viewed as a major turning point in the Star Wars universe and will probably be revered pretty highly. I think the problem for a lot of people is that it was a sudden reversal from TFA, and it was a lot for fans who have been loving the series for decades to come to terms with. Over time, I think people will gradually accept it though.

[Raxivace]

It disregarded all of those mystery boxes left by JJ. I personally loved Rey's parentage reveal and the way they killed off Snoke, revealing that Kylo really is the main baddie of this series.

Yeah all of this owned, though unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if its undone in Episode IX since Abrams is coming back for that.

I don't really agree that TLJ is bold for tearing down the myths though. Empire Strikes Back and the entire prequel trilogy already did that (A lot of Luke's complaints about the Jedi are just verbalizing plot points from these movies), though its nice that its there and that it made bitter nerds angry.

[Monk]

It disregarded all of those mystery boxes left by JJ. I personally loved Rey's parentage reveal and the way they killed off Snoke, revealing that Kylo really is the main baddie of this series.

Yeah all of this owned, though unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if its undone in Episode IX since Abrams is coming back for that.

I don't really agree that TLJ is bold for tearing down the myths though. Empire Strikes Back and the entire prequel trilogy already did that (A lot of Luke's complaints about the Jedi are just verbalizing plot points from these movies), though its nice that its there and that it made bitter nerds angry.

Yeah, I think JJ is probably going to retcon some of it, especially given how angry so many fans are and Disney's approach to things

I disagree about it not being bold, obviously. It very obviously tore down legends and hero worshiping, as in the case of Luke's treatment. And it blurred the lines much more between the light side and dark side (and Jedi/Sith), allowing for a lot more gray. It's true that the failure of the Jedi and their complacency is a plot point of the prequels, but I don't think it was particularly well done. If anything, it felt like a bit of an afterthought, and primarily was shown through the perspective of Anakin. If anything, his character should have become disillusioned with the Jedi and the Council because of their complete apathy towards many things - not because he thought they were conspiring against him. God, so many things about the prequels make me so annoyed at what could have been.

[Raxivace]

I don't mean that TLJ doesn't tear down hero worshiping, just that's it's like the fifth or sixth Star Wars movie to do so and isn't bold in the sense that it isn't the first. I 100% agree that stuff with Luke is in the film though.

If anything, his character should have become disillusioned with the Jedi and the Council because of their complete apathy towards many things - not because he thought they were conspiring against him.

Well he starts off being upset by their apathy in Attack of the Clones and then it spirals into the paranoid stuff after the Emperor starts getting into his head. YMMV on the execution (I think it's fine), but it's certainly there.

[Monk]

I don't mean that TLJ doesn't tear down hero worshiping, just that's it's like the fifth or sixth Star Wars movie to do so and isn't bold in the sense that it isn't the first. I 100% agree that stuff with Luke is in the film though.

Yeah...I don't see it. 5th or 6th? Not really.

Well he starts off being upset by their apathy in Attack of the Clones and then it spirals into the paranoid stuff after the Emperor starts getting into his head. YMMV on the execution (I think it's fine), but it's certainly there.

Barely. It's all overshadowed by his own self-interest and belief of self-worth.

[Raxivace]

The plot of ESB is that Luke learns his heroes/mentors were liars who deceived him and the entire PT is about demythologizing the Jedi as an institution. Luke's story in TLJ and his moment of hesitation with Kylo is just a cyclical continuation of all of this.

I'm unsure of whether RotJ (It's annoying that you can't just call this movie "Jedi" now) should be included since while Luke is rejecting the patricidal mission that Obi-Wan and Yoda were grooming him for, he's still going around trying to live up to his idealized version of being a Jedi anyways. It's a lot like the central contradiction that motivates Toshiro Mifune's character in Seven Samurai- he knows the system that created the samurai is intensely fucked up, but wants to become one anyways.

Barely. It's all overshadowed by his own self-interest and belief of self-worth.

Agree to disagree.

[Monk]

The plot of ESB is that Luke learns his heroes/mentors were liars who deceived him and the entire PT is about demythologizing the Jedi as an institution. Luke's story in TLJ and his moment of hesitation with Kylo is just a cyclical continuation of all of this.

Eh, I dunno about. Luke is upset that they lied to him, but there's no indication he doesn't still look up to them as his heroes. And this largely happened a result of the changing story, since originally Vader wasn't planned to be Luke's father. The intention wasn't to bring down his heroes a notch.

As far as the prequel trilogy, we already knew that they were gonna fail pretty hard, and the individual Jedi were still treated as heroes even if the order itself was marred by bureaucracy and complacency. Obi-Wan and Yoda are still revered and treated as legends, even if they failed to prevent the emperor's uprising. Luke's story in TLJ takes a step further, noting that not only did he believe that the Order itself was bad, but Jedi in general are just bad for the galaxy.

But by saying "bold", I wasn't just talking about bringing down legends. The film subverts all kinds of typical Star Wars tropes you'd expect. Poe's heroics when they succeed cause massive casualties, and his against-all-odds heroics ultimately backfire and cause even more casualties. This is pretty different than what we see in ANH, RotJ,
or even TFA. Kylo's betrayal of Snoke was a complete surprise, and revealed that he is actually the main antagonist of the series - not a lackey who is largely under the thumb of an evil overlord. Instead of the "scum" of the galaxy being smugglers and thieves, like those seen at Mos Eisley, it's really the rich and powerful we see at Canto Bight. DJ's arc is not one of redemption, like Han Solo - he really is all about the money and saving his own neck. These are just off the top of my head - I'm pretty sure I recognized more before.

Agree to disagree.

I mean, feel free to convince me otherwise. Most of Anakin's complaints pertain to him and his own self-interests.