Toronto Attack and Incels

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

So the Toronto attack has been linked to Incels. I really don't get incels. I'm no looker and I've certainly not done well with "the ladies" (until I met my wonderful wife) but I never felt any sense of entitlement or that I have somehow been wronged by the world. So what the fuck is wrong with these people that they have all this anger and can't realise that the reason no-one finds them attractive is because they are deeply unattractive - on the inside - regardless of how they look on the outside...

Fuck them and their tiny pricks. The worlds a better place if they don't get to breed.

[phe_de]

So the Toronto attack has been linked to Incels. I really don't get incels. I'm no looker and I've certainly not done well with "the ladies" (until I met my wonderful wife) but I never felt any sense of entitlement or that I have somehow been wronged by the world. So what the fuck is wrong with these people that they have all this anger and can't realise that the reason no-one finds them attractive is because they are deeply unattractive - on the inside - regardless of how they look on the outside...

Fuck them and their tiny pricks. The worlds a better place if they don't get to breed.

I'm a 50 year old virgin, and I completely agree with your post.

[Anakin McFly]

29 year old virgin here. I get their anger. I disagree with it and find their misogyny and worldview abhorrent, but I understand where they're coming from. I honestly think that it's just a facade for the deeper issue of intense loneliness and shame, which they can't bring themselves to admit and therefore use women and their lack of sex as a scapegoat.

Extreme loneliness is the one thing they all have in common, not virginity. Some of them have had sex in the past. Whereas socially active virgins with healthy friendships don't fit that same profile. Not every extremely lonely person (or incel, for that matter) turns to violence, because there are other factors at play that push them there, but it's often what makes that level of hatred even possible to begin with.

I also think the tone of news coverage of this isn't helping, the way they present incels as this strange, previously unknown group of humanity that the reader (who is presumably having sex) will be astonished to hear about, creating this us vs them divide that positions incels against the normal people with friends and sex and decent happy lives. It's already making me frustrated and triggering a lot of buried self hatred and anger just by the way some of them are talking about adult virgins, especially lazy journalism that lumps us together and assumes we must all be unattractive violent misogynists on the verge of mass murder. It's possible to criticise and condemn without treating them as separate from normal humanity, which only contributes to that isolation and humiliation that causes some people to lash out.

I found this article yesterday and thought it was good:
https://medium.com/s/story/todays-probl ... 3e80edcf60

EDIT: here's a list of self-descriptors from an incel subreddit (r/ForeverAlone) I was once invited to:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... li=1#gid=0

The overwhelming themes are loneliness, isolation and depression, not entitlement or hatred.

EDIT 2: there are exceptions who are purely sociopathic and I have zero sympathy for the 4chan incels advocating 'mass rape' as the next step because it delights them to know that that's something women will find it harder to move on from because they'll have to carry the trauma for life

[Anakin McFly]

Sharing this because this guy said it better than I could: https://medium.com/@joelhill/hope-cope- ... dc8955ceaf

I found it an interesting stat that 70% of incels are non-white, with many who are physically or mentally disabled, because it goes against the media narrative of this being primarily a group of entitled white men.

[Derived Absurdity]

Interesting. One online poll with a tiny non-representative sample size isn't very strong evidence for incels' non-whiteness, though.

I still have a very hard time feeling any sympathy for these people. I have been suicidally depressed constantly, for as long as I can remember. I have passionately hated life since childhood. Usually just getting through the day is almost more than I can bear. I have extreme social anxiety and aversion. Intense, almost unbearable loneliness is a very familiar feeling to me. I have no actual friends (people I connect to on an emotional level.) Hatred and rage of other people come to me uncomfortably easily. I'm also insecure about my looks sometimes. So it's not like I don't get where they're coming from.

Yet that's no justification for the homicidal hatred they feel for women or more attractive/successful guys. If "inceldom" was just a place for lonely depressed people to connect with and support each other and rage about the state of the world, I would support that completely. But I've looked at some incel forums in the past and they were filled with some of the most putrid vile shit I've ever seen. I would never find a home there. They are fundamentally bad people. No matter how bad I was, I never came close to any of that.

There are some antinatalist communities online I've been a part of. Those guys are usually okay. Incels. Incels are like the TERFs of antinatalists.

[phe_de]

Sharing this because this guy said it better than I could: https://medium.com/@joelhill/hope-cope- ... dc8955ceaf

I found it an interesting stat that 70% of incels are non-white, with many who are physically or mentally disabled, because it goes against the media narrative of this being primarily a group of entitled white men.

Not sure where you got the 70% non-whites; I didn't find it in the article.

But anyway: I have very little sympathy for these "incels". This article pointed out what in my opinion is wrong with them: They believe that sex or sexual/romantic relationship is a basic human need, and cite Maslow.
Well, guess what: Maslow was wrong about that. Basic human needs are needs that you have to satisfy in the short or mid-long term if you want to survive.
If you don't have air to breathe, you die within minutes.
If you don't have water to drink, you die within days.
If you don't have food to eat, you die within weeks.
If you don't have clothes and shelter, you die within months (or sooner, if you live in a cold climate).
But if you don't have sex, you can still live a long and happy, healthy life.

So if an incel complained to me about trouble finding a significant other, then I'd think to myself: Maybe you should stop trying, and find something else to do with your life. Whether I'd say this aloud to him would depend on how much he annoys me.

You don't always get what you want in life. When I was a teenager I wanted to become a Formula One pilot; despite being completely unathletic and not talented for driving. I grew out of it. Maybe incels should grow out of wanting a relationship, and find something they are good at. Instead of focusing on their shortcomings, they should try to explore their strengths.
And if their only strength they find is to make people suffer (especially women), then they deserve every bit of scorn they get.

[Cassius Clay]

Nothing turns women on quite like self-pity and entitlement.

And well-said, phe_de...but I do think there are basic "needs" that aren't just about immediate survival...these are psychological needs. I think most humans need intimacy of some sort with other humans(not strictly physical) in the sense that it's necessary for mental well-being. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling intimacy a need...but just because it's a need doesn't mean someone has to fulfill it. One has to act like a person and negotiate such things with other humans by respecting agency and reciprocating intimacy/emotional availability. But these people are so lost in their heads(like a character in Inception), they just stop at need...wallowing in self-pity and unable to think empathetically about anyone else. Which doesn't just make them unattractive...but makes them unable to connect with anyone anyway...except for each other in their made up world. They should all just fuck each other.

[Anakin McFly]

@DA - hugs.
I see those things more as strong risk factors than a certain path there; as you mention, hatred and anger is a part of it, and in their case they twisted it towards blaming women for their problems (vs you turned it towards terrible people and humanity in general.) And yeah, some of their stuff is inexcusably vile. Being in that community definitely makes it worse because it's just a self-perpetuating cycle of victimhood. I think many of them started out as lonely people looking for help, and then they found others telling them that all this was women's fault and that they should take revenge. So it's the standard terrorist radicalization narrative there.

I can't remember where the 70% non white stat came from. Maybe it was a Facebook comment or one of the links in the article, but I remember quotes and links to pages where those guys would talk about how white people can't be true incels because everyone wants to sleep with them, which is obviously untrue. Likewise with one post being angry about how brown women all want to sleep with white men, but white women also only want white men, which leaves them without anyone. So there's a lot of racially-based resentment going on, and some of it does make sense.

@phe_de: I'd argue that it's not sex that's the need, but human intimacy as Cassius said. It's the same reason why it's so destructive when churches demand that gay people remain single and celibate for life. Some of them get extremely messed up by that, because of the isolation. The loneliness sometimes turns toxic, and I've been wondering if that was the case for the Orlando shooter. Whereas I know of celibate gay couples who are totally fine and don't experience the same problems.

I posted elsewhere that I don't think it's women's job to be nicer to these men, partly because it's not their fault and partly because I genuinely don't think it will help. But what's more likely to make an impact would be other men being kinder to them, especially those popular, attractive men whom they're used to being bullied and mocked by. Most of the time the what makes it worse is the sense that they're suffering and nobody cares, which then festers into a desire to make them suffer too.

[phe_de]

About human intimacy:
Yes, it's possible that Maslow was thinking about human interaction in general; not just sex or other types of intimate physical contact.
For toddlers, I agree that it's a basic need. I believe it's documented that if toddlers don't get physical contact with other humans, they die.
But then, toddlers also can only process several types of food. When they grow up, their needs change. And for grown ups, in my opinion, human contact, especially intimate or physical, is not a basic need. Hermits exist; even if they are rare.

And there are plenty of types of human interactions that incels might want to look for. Monks and nuns have existed for centuries; they are not known for having plenty of sex. Maybe that's what people who can't get a one-on-one relationship going might want to look for.
And it doesn't have to be a convent. Join a club, or a choir. You get plenty of human interaction there. If it's a sports club, it might even be physical.

But these incels mentioned in the article and in the forum DA visited seem to be a bunch of people who feel entitled, not very nice, and not deserving of pity.

[Anakin McFly]

Monks and nuns generally have a very strong community. But yeah, I was thinking about hermits yesterday. It's possible that the sort who live in a cave somewhere or in a forest aren't affected by loneliness to the same degree, because chilling on a mountain or by a lake seems very different than being alone in an apartment somewhere with only furniture for company. It's why people go crazy fairly fast in solitary isolation.

I think it could actually be being around life, rather than people, that's the need; which is why people living alone with pets also fare better than those without.

[Anakin McFly]

Found the link! 37% white.
https://incels.me/threads/what-is-your- ... ound.5715/

[phe_de]

Found the link! 37% white.
https://incels.me/threads/what-is-your- ... ound.5715/

Which is probably not a representative sample. It's only among the users of that forum, and only those who answered the poll.
Elliott Rodger and Alek Minassian were/are white.

[Anakin McFly]

Minassian yes, but internalised racism and hatred of his mixed race identity was a big part of Rodger's motivation.

I'd also argue that it's white incels who are more likely to resort to violence and have that come to fruition, which is where the entitlement and all that come in.

[Cassius Clay]

Good thread on the topic:

https://twitter.com/brosandprose/status ... 5806854144

[Anakin McFly]

Our response to incels should NOT be a thought experiment about sex robots + government sex redistribution programs.

what the hell, someone wrote that?

I'm very sleep deprived right now, but I don't like either take on the subject, because this isn't as simple either as misogynists turning to terrorism. Lots of misogynists who feel entitled to women's bodies aren't incels nor will ever be, the President of the United States being a prime example.

I also think it would be very helpful all around to focus on a standard definition of 'incel', i.e. are we just referring to sociopathic misogynists who wish to torture and kill women for not sleeping with them, or are we referring more broadly to people who are involuntarily celibate? because there's been no consistency in those definitions, and the incel community itself is pretty huge and includes many who just identify as such because they'd like to have sex but can't, but instead of being misogynists and advocating mass rape or planning mass murder they just hang around the internet being sad and commiserating with others in the same position.

and honestly a lot of the commentary around this is triggering bad memories of being bullied for being a weird nerdy kid who would never find love, and I would question how much collateral damage is being done in their overenthusiastic fervour to condemn everything that incels stand for or are associated with, because in the us vs them barriers being drawn, I'm feeling shunted firmly to 'them', even though I hate misogyny with a passion. but I also find it hard to empathise with people who remind me of the kids who made my life a living hell in school.

most of them just don't understand what incels are about, and it shows in the way they talk about it, conflating them with MRA groups that many incels hate, or making this out to be the end-point of extreme misogyny, or sidestepping examples that would go against their theories - like the existence of gay and lesbian incels with similar amounts of hatred. Understanding doesn't mean sympathising, or even condoning. I understand neo-Nazis and still have zero sympathy for them.

(also frustrated by how often people rhetorically ask where the female incels are at, because I know a few, including two who once talked about murdering people because they hated all the normies, or just focusing on men - how would that be explained by misogyny? but it's possibly similar to suicide, where women may share similar levels of intent but be less likely or able to carry it out).

yet another edit: certainly the sorts of incels who are being screencapped for saying atrocious things deserve most if not all of the vitriol hurled their way, and many of them should be locked up before they hurt someone. most of them are too far gone and no amount of love and understanding will make a difference. but there are many more also self-described incels who would be just as appalled by those things, who got into the community because they were desperately lonely, and who can still be reached before they go even deeper down that hole, and I'm scared that all this is just reinforcing their persecution complex and pushing them further into hatred.

[Cassius Clay]

1) Yes, lots of misogynists aren't incels(and lots of incel people aren't misogynists), but who said that? Fact remains that there is a specific movement of misogynistic incels that needs to be identified and thoroughly rebuked for what it is. And, are these specific assholes mostly male? Hell yes. But, if there are any female/lesbian incels who behave in the same manner, then they should be treated the same way.

2) Have I seen some assholes making mean-spirited jokes that lump all incel folks together? Sure. But, most of the thoughtful/meaningful/useful conversation I've seen on the topic(like in the thread I posted) are not like that. The woman in the thread specifically says we need to hear more from female incels(because the fact is that women are not conditioned by society to feel entitled to sex) - and male incels - who reject the toxic worldview of the online movement. Because the group of assholes aren't the only problem...as usual there are enablers who rationalize and validate their ridiculous worldview.

3) And if you're not an entitled piece of shit, I don't see why you feel so identified with entitled pieces of shit. Your only commonality with them is a frustrated sex life(and you'd be surprised how deeply sexually frustrated even the sexually active folks are). There's nothing that woman wrote that lumps all incel folks together...she specifically makes distinctions. Even without the distinctions, it's kinda like when women say "men are trash". If you're not a piece-of-shit man, no need to take it personally and jump in to defend men. Because a lot of men who do that are basically saying they are identified with trash men. There is a legitimate, dangerous movement of incels that need to be called out, not just some small/harmless, overblown minority. And you need take responsibility to distinguish yourself from and criticize it, not identify with it.

4) Lastly, one of the keys to overcoming the bitterness of envy/jealousy is realizing/appreciating the fragility and struggle of life. No one has it easy. Even people who have it much easier is certain respects, still struggle in life...because, though everyone puts on a brave face, life is a fucking struggle. Life is fragile as fuck, and even people who have it great can suddenly get cancer and die...or die in a plane crash...or lose a loved one...or the hundreds of other things can suddenly kill you/wreck your life. Then on top of that we have to now deal with whiny little bastards turning to terrorism because they think the "chads and stacies" have it so good. Meanwhile these motherfuckers are likely doing better than MOST PEOPLE ON EARTH. I watched a video of a teenage quadruple amputee(with a ridiculously positive attitude) the other day that made so many of my problems seem so petty that I felt ashamed. When you realize our commonality is in our struggle and in the fragility of life/happiness...it's easier to be happy for people who get good things. Well, as long as those things aren't at your expense. Though, part of the problem is that some people see everything as a zero-sum/dominance/status game...and therefore everything good that happens for someone else is automatically at their expense.

Articles from a guy who's been following/cataloging these assholes for years:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e-stopped/

https://www.elle.com/culture/career-pol ... thing-but/

https://www.thecut.com/2018/04/incel-me ... eddit.html

[Anakin McFly]

Thanks. More awake now:

1) I'm seeing a lot of that around. Comments on one article about an arrested stalker declared him another incel, even though he had the opposite problem - he was convinced women were in love with him when they weren't, and lived in this happy bubble of delusion where he was God's greatest gift to womankind and women were dying to have sex with him but just too shy to make the first move.

3) Not so much the frustrated sex life as empathizing with the loneliness, self-loathing, history of being bullied, and jealousy/hatred of “normal" people. (I automatically empathise with lonely outcasts in general.) I'm mostly out of that now, partly because I grew up but mostly because I reached a point of finding acceptance among those normal people, which ended the resentment of feeling excluded from and looked down upon by the rest of humanity. Sex isn't the issue. My brother is also a virgin but is extremely popular, has had two girlfriends, lots of female friends, and is about as far as someone can get from incel. Point taken re: analogy of defending shitty men. But I've also seen so many people saying things like “if you're still a virgin, maybe try not being an asshole"; which I realise that it's the internet and people say things like that, but it hits a nerve.

There is a legitimate, dangerous movement of incels that need to be called out, not just some small/harmless, overblown minority.

Yes.

4) On one hand I agree that these people typically have it much better than the vast majority, but human intimacy is a fundamental need and something that can arguably override others. I think that quite a few incels would genuinely prefer a life in which they were materially much worse off but among people who loved them. I'm actually really happy in general these days, because of the friends I've made, despite being materially worse off and subject to more social oppression (due to being out as lgbt) than during my incel period.

Meanwhile I'm acquaintances with three LGBT people I suspect of being incels, two with violent streaks that have made me avoid them (one gay guy would write out rape fantasies on his Facebook page, and seemed to have a crush on me) and all three are clearly not neurotypical. Usual recommendations about being nicer/friendlier/less creepy won't help them; one of them does things like sit down at a table of strangers, engage them in enthusastic conversation, and ask them to have sex with him. There are a lot of people who fall through the cracks because society just isn't set up to support them, and I don't think further shunning or condemning them is the answer here. I'm not sure what is, because while I can see they're desperately lonely and need friends, I have trouble just being around them without being creeped out, which makes me part of that problem too.

[phe_de]

Good thread on the topic:

https://twitter.com/brosandprose/status ... 5806854144

I read that thread a few days ago, and ended up clicking a few links. There are also links to articles by David Futrelle (linked in another post), and a link to incels.me.
The vitriol towards David Futrelle on the incels.me board was a bit disturbing, to put it mildly. I am not surprised that the people who post there are not finding mates.
Some stuff on incels.me is so outlandish that I wonder if they really mean it, or if they are just POEing the Internet. But unfortunately, Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian were real and did real harm. So I guess that quite a few people really think like written on incels.me

But: Very often, people speak about an "incel community". This makes it sound like they were a homogenous group, with common interests and goals. But Anakin said it well here:

I also think it would be very helpful all around to focus on a standard definition of 'incel', i.e. are we just referring to sociopathic misogynists who wish to torture and kill women for not sleeping with them, or are we referring more broadly to people who are involuntarily celibate? because there's been no consistency in those definitions, and the incel community itself is pretty huge and includes many who just identify as such because they'd like to have sex but can't, but instead of being misogynists and advocating mass rape or planning mass murder they just hang around the internet being sad and commiserating with others in the same position.

And very often, in the posts on the ella dawson thread, it's implied that incels are incels, and lump all involuntary celibates in with the vocal scumbags.
Dangerous thinking in my opinion; also prevalent in people who say "Muslim = Terrorist sympathizer".

On the other hand, platforms like "incels.me" (and possibly 4chan, which I haven't checked) can be considered communities. I guess that incels who hang around these vocal misogynists bring it on themselves if they are lumped in with misogynic entitled males.
I guess one way to not be considered a misogynist entitled scumbag is: Don't let your celibacy be what defines you most. And in this case: Don't let the thinking of posters on incels.me define yourselves.

[Anakin McFly]

The term 'incel' was first coined by a woman to describe herself; she created the incel community so that other lonely people could gather and make friends, and she's horrified at what the term is now associated with. So it's not that the violent misogynists are a fringe minority, but rather that their extreme views made them the most well-known and had them come to define the community, even though the group of people who have identified or still identify themselves as incels are much more varied than that.

Other than that, I think it's also possible (and sometimes necessary) to both show understanding and compassion to someone while also unequivocally condemning their actions and taking steps to protect other people from them. There may be parallels with how those with pedophilic orientations are less likely to ever abuse a child if they have access to support and help from friends who hold them accountable, instead of being ostracised.