Artists that are solidly B+

[Derived Absurdity]

What in your opinion are artists that consistently produce solid B+ material, like much better than average material, but have never yet managed to produce a masterpiece or anything truly great?

For example, Guillermo del Toro doesn't count, because even though everything else he made has been a B+, Pan's Labyrinth is obviously a masterpiece. Conversely, Stephen King doesn't count, because while most of his material is B+, he also made The Tommyknockers.

I can't think of many off hand. For directors I might say Wes Anderson and Christopher Nolan. I can't do musicians or authors because I'm not good at judging music and I don't read books.

[Raxivace]

I think Grand Budapest Hotel might be better than B+, though most of the other Wes Andersons I've seen are like what you describe.

Paul Thomas Anderson is the big one like this for me though- I don't think he's made anything to quite earn the reputation he has yet.

To go further back into history, I really feel this way about John Huston too. I'd go as far as saying he's a better actor than he is a director.

[Derived Absurdity]

I've only seen a few of PTA's movies (I want to see all of them eventually), but so far he seems to fit. I think There Will Be Blood is a solid B+.

[Raxivace]

Also if we're expanding this to stuff beyond movies, I'm going to add David Simon.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Good thread/question. I answered by going through the various lists I have of artists and my rankings of them, so this is based on a pretty cursory reading:

Filmmakers:

Paul Thomas Anderson - I think I like him slightly more than Rax, and many of his films (There Will Be Blood, Inherent Vice, Punch-Drunk Love) really teeter on my 8.5/9.0 ledge. But I also think that in all these films PTA's reach exceeds his grasp.

Wes Anderson - I don't really like most of his except Grand Budapest Hotel, which is one of my favorites of this century, so I can't put him here.

Christopher Nolan - I don't think he even averages a B for me. TDKR was just awful, IMO.

Wong Kar-Wai - I haven't rated any of his higher than an 8.5. I love his aesthetics, but all of his films just feel so empty to me. I still don't get how In the Mood for Love is TSPDT's Greatest Film of the 21st Century.

Jean Vigo - OK, so he only made two films, but I think L'Atalante is overrated, though still a solid 8.5 or so.

Robert Altman - Only film of his I think is better than a B+ is McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

Max Ophuls - Beautiful to look at, some of the most graceful camerawork ever, but for melodrama I think Douglas Sirl was superior. Lola Montes comes close to a 9/10, though.

Werner Herzog - Outside Aguirre he' s mostly in the 8/8.5 range.

Jacques Tati - Films are immensely impressive and enjoyable, but I also don't think any are better than an 8.5.

David Cronenberg - Videodrome teeters on a 9/10 for me, but other than that I find his films to be in the 8-8.5 range at best.

Pedro Almodovar - Solid director, none have uber-wowed me though.

Music (Pop/Rock):

Bruce Springsteen

Cream

Dark Tranquility

Dead Can Dance

Echo and the Bunnymen

Immortal

Katatonia

Motorhead

Porcupine Tree

PJ Harvey

Suede

Talking Heads

The Doors

The Flower Kings

The Mars Volta

The Verve

Tom Petty

Alcest

Blur

Celtic Frost

Cheap Trick

Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Entombed

Gamma Ray

Joe Satriani

Kyuss

Massive Attack

Mazzy Star

Paramore

The New Pornographers

Music (Classical):

Dvorak (9th Symphony kinda saves him)

Vivaldi

Shostakovich

R.V. Williams

Saint-Saens

Grieg

Gluck

Hindemith

Copland

Satie

D. Scarlatti

Telemann

C.P.E. Bach

Donizetti

Bellini

Corelli

Respighi

Literature:

Dostoevsky (OK, don't everyone kill me at once!)

TS Eliot

Euripides

Kafka

Moliere

Swift

Poe

Whitman

Coleridge

Pound

Marvell

Bishop

Sidney

Hopkins

Plath

Crane

Cowper

WC Williams

[Raxivace]

Werner Herzog - Outside Aguirre he' s mostly in the 8/8.5 range.

I think I'm with you on Nolan and Atlman (Idk about Vigo though, I only saw A Propos de Nice and Taris, the latter of which you might remember me reviewing in my one-word review days), but Herzog is one I definitely like more than you. I find most of his stuff that I've seen to be pretty enrpaturing, whether we're talking the features or the documentaries.

In general I'm a big fan of putting some insane asshole in an exotic location.

[Raxivace]

Here's a thought: should we consider Ridley Scott one of these B+ artists? Like yeah a lot of people will stand up for Blade Runner and Alien, but that dude has had a long career, and I'm not sure he's ever made anything else that quite approached those two. Maybe Thelma & Louise, if I had to pick a third.

I even like some of his more controversial recent films like Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, though I wouldn't call them masterpieces as much as not failures like some try to paint them as.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Werner Herzog - Outside Aguirre he' s mostly in the 8/8.5 range.

I think I'm with you on Nolan and Atlman (Idk about Vigo though, I only saw A Propos de Nice and Taris, the latter of which you might remember me reviewing in my one-word review days), but Herzog is one I definitely like more than you. I find most of his stuff that I've seen to be pretty enrpaturing, whether we're talking the features or the documentaries.

In general I'm a big fan of putting some insane asshole in an exotic location.

Of those I listed Herzog is probably the best of them. I could easily see Aguirre going up to even a 9.5 on a rewatch--it's stuck in my mind after my first and only viewing over a decade ago. I've liked all of his others to varying degrees, with Nosferatu probably being the best, but I don't think any of them quite reach my 9-or-better "masterpiece" ratings. Averaging an 8.5 is still pretty damn good; an 8.5 is "brilliant" on my rating scale after all.

Here's a thought: should we consider Ridley Scott one of these B+ artists? Like yeah a lot of people will stand up for Blade Runner and Alien, but that dude has had a long career, and I'm not sure he's ever made anything else that quite approached those two. Maybe Thelma & Louise, if I had to pick a third.

I even like some of his more controversial recent films like Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, though I wouldn't call them masterpieces as much as not failures like some try to paint them as.

If making masterpieces excludes them, then Scott is excluded on the merits of BR and Alien, and arguably even The Duellists. He's much like Coppola in that he just hasn't made anything great since those early masterpieces. Both of them--and Scorsese and Spielberg are kinda similar--turned into craftsmen.

[Derived Absurdity]

Putting The Wire as a B+ is definitely an Opinion. It might be a good one, as I know it's supposed to be the greatest show of all time, but people also say that about Breaking Bad, which is also a B+.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I liked Breaking Bad much more than The Wire; I found it far more compelling both aesthetically and from a character perspective. The Wire had tremendous narrative richness and complexity, and I think it had a handful of standout moments, but I also ended up being slightly underwhelmed given the hype. Maybe it just boils down to BB being a more personal/intimate show. In The Wire I felt like most of the characters remained at arm's length a bit and most of the focus was on the drama of the plot/events.

[Cassius Clay]

The Wire is slightly overhyped...I think mostly by well-meaning(if I'm charitable) white people. It's still a good ass show tho.

[Derived Absurdity]

Yeah, I'm definitely not interested then. I like character-focused personal/intimate stories much more than "grander" ones that substitute that for scope and narrative complexity. Game of Thrones was very good at the beginning because it did an excellent job of melding the two IMO. I think one thing that soured me on Breaking Bad was that it was good on the personal character stuff for the first few seasons but at some imperceptible point in the fifth season it kind of dropped that in favor of... I'm not really sure what.

[Raxivace]

I liked Breaking Bad much more than The Wire; I found it far more compelling both aesthetically and from a character perspective. The Wire had tremendous narrative richness and complexity, and I think it had a handful of standout moments, but I also ended up being slightly underwhelmed given the hype. Maybe it just boils down to BB being a more personal/intimate show. In The Wire I felt like most of the characters remained at arm's length a bit and most of the focus was on the drama of the plot/events.

I agree with this, though I'll add that I think the female characters in particular really suffer here in a way that the male ones don't.

Like its pretty telling that Simon said the only way he could write a character like Kima was by thinking her as a "man with tits" (His words, not mine), and sadly she's still probably one of the better female characters on that show in that she at least sort of has something resembling an arc.

The Wire is a good show, there's still a lot to like there, but I can't help but think of the quote in my signature when I look at a lot of the online discourse about it.

[maz89]

I didn't care too much for BB's fourth and fifth seasons though. They were fun and adrenaline packed, sure, but they also went into absurd territory for me, demanding more and more in terms of suspension of disbelief. Things clicked into place far too often and far too neatly. The climax was a bit lackluster too. For the "personal/intimate" show revolving around violence and self-delusion, BB doesn't come close to The Sopranos.

Speaking of BB, I really like Better Call Saul. I thought the third season was exceptional. If the show can maintain this quality for another few seasons and then end with a bang, it'll easily overtake BB for me. One of those rare instances when the quality of the spin-off exceeds that of the original...

I think the intimate moments in The Wire are less obvious and pronounced, and that is why I find those few moments of vulnerability all the more powerful and affecting. The authenticity of that show has always been disarming and memorable. I need to check out Treme and The Deuce.

[Derived Absurdity]

Better Call Saul is already miles ahead of Breaking Bad.