2020 stuff

User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Derived Absurdity wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:My issue with Fury Road was only that it wasn't more than "pure exuberant fun" but that people were talking about it like it was some artistic masterpiece. I liked it just fine as a piece of pure action-entertainment. Though I do think BTTF is better as entertainment, if only because it actually has worthwhile characters, a sense of humor, and a gear other than 5th.
Uh, it is an artistic masterpiece, sir. And every minor character in Fury Road is more worthwhile than every character in the entire BTTF trilogy combined. Also, it has a blind guy who plays an electric guitar that throws flames, and I laughed when I saw it, so checkmark the sense of humor.
[razz]
Derived Absurdity wrote:
BruceSmith78 wrote:I love the BTTF trilogy and the first two Terminators, but I think the best film I've seen involving time travel is 12 Monkeys.
I liked 12 Monkeys. I think Groundhog Dog also counts as a time travel movie, and it used the concept the best out of any movie I know.
Not sure if I'd call Groundhog Day's a time travel movie. It's probably the most original film I've seen where time is a plot element, though. Crazy to think that a movie basically invented a term that's now in common usage that we didn't have before.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Raxivace wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Gendo wrote:Back to the Future is great; but Back to the Future 2 is better. Fight me.
I think all three films are about equal in overall quality but with different strengths and weaknesses. I think 1 is the most perfectly paced, written, and edited, but they don't do much with the 50s setting outside of the time-travel incest angle and Marty inventing rock and roll. 2's setting is the most interesting of the trilogy and they use it extremely well both in the story and just as a background setting. However, I barely even remember what 2's story is about... mostly Marty fighting with Biff after he steals an almanac or something? 3 is like an amalgam of 1's pacing and 2's setting but doesn't do either better than its predecessors, but it's setting is better than 1 and pacing/potting better than 2.
Basically, Marty had been planning on taking a sports alamanc from 2015 with him back to the past, but Doc talks him out of it and makes him throw it away...
I was semi-joking about not remembering the plot. TBH, I watched all three films so much as a kid I remember them all pretty well, though I do remember 2's plot the least. The stuff I remember most from 2 is just all the futuristic stuff. That backstory behind the film is interesting. Guess I never really considered Marty's new car at the end of 1 was any big deal or too materialistic since most all teenagers want cars.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

BruceSmith78 wrote:I love the BTTF trilogy and the first two Terminators, but I think the best film I've seen involving time travel is 12 Monkeys.
12 Monkeys is a "remake" of La Jetee, FWIW. I like 12 Monkeys too but I don't think it's in the same league as Terminators and BTTF.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

I like 12 Monkeys but I kind of wish Gilliam had played up his own weird style with it more, especially when you compare it to how stylistically unique La Jetee is, to the point that that's probably the single greatest PowerPoint presentation ever made.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I was semi-joking about not remembering the plot. TBH, I watched all three films so much as a kid I remember them all pretty well, though I do remember 2's plot the least. The stuff I remember most from 2 is just all the futuristic stuff. That backstory behind the film is interesting. Guess I never really considered Marty's new car at the end of 1 was any big deal or too materialistic since most all teenagers want cars.
I guess the one thing I would bring up about this then is the idea from that TSPDT quote you posted about BTTF1 being more of a satire or mockery of the 80's than the 50's. Something like Marty being "rewarded" with the new car he wants arguably plays more into accepting the Reaganite values of the period instead of satirizing them, even if other parts of the movie make a joke about Reagan and America of the 80's ("Ronald Reagan?! The actor?! Ha! Then who's Vice President? Jerry Lewis?").
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

4 of my favorite time travel movies haven't been mentioned yet.

Primer, Predestination, Triangle, and Butterfly Effect.
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

I like Triangle well enough but thought Primer and Predestination were both absolutely terrible. Never saw Butterfly Effect.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Raxivace wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I was semi-joking about not remembering the plot. TBH, I watched all three films so much as a kid I remember them all pretty well, though I do remember 2's plot the least. The stuff I remember most from 2 is just all the futuristic stuff. That backstory behind the film is interesting. Guess I never really considered Marty's new car at the end of 1 was any big deal or too materialistic since most all teenagers want cars.
I guess the one thing I would bring up about this then is the idea from that TSPDT quote you posted about BTTF1 being more of a satire or mockery of the 80's than the 50's. Something like Marty being "rewarded" with the new car he wants arguably plays more into accepting the Reaganite values of the period instead of satirizing them, even if other parts of the movie make a joke about Reagan and America of the 80's ("Ronald Reagan?! The actor?! Ha! Then who's Vice President? Jerry Lewis?").
I get the satirizing of Reaganite values in general, but I guess I just don't think a teenager wanting a car is indicative of those values. Kids want cars because they want freedom from their parents, not because they want lower taxes and an unrestricted free market so that they can become a John Galt.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Gendo wrote:4 of my favorite time travel movies haven't been mentioned yet.

Primer, Predestination, Triangle, and Butterfly Effect.
Haven't seen the middle two, but I thought Primer was awful and Butterfly Effect was extremely meh. Two good time travel films that haven't been mentioned are Edge of Tomorrow and Looper. Neither are masterpieces, but still solid, excellent films.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

Really surprised that both of you dislike Primer; I'd have thought it was right in your wheelhouse.
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

It's been a long time since I've seen either, but I thought Edge of Tomorrow had basically the exact same premise as Groundhog Day. Edge of Tomorrow just gives it a sci-fi explanation, while Groundhog Day gives no explanation. But they each go back in time a bunch, so I think they're time travel.
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I get the satirizing of Reaganite values in general, but I guess I just don't think a teenager wanting a car is indicative of those values. Kids want cars because they want freedom from their parents, not because they want lower taxes and an unrestricted free market so that they can become a John Galt.
The car itself is recognition of the McFly family's higher economic standing now though, which only exists because of Marty's changing history. I'm not saying that makes him a Randian figure necessarily, but he did profit off of it quite heavily it seems.

That's just a single way to read that ending that I'm advocating anyways. I think it can also be read as freedom from his family- particularly his father. Now that I think about it, George himself is associated just as heavily with cars in that film (Wrecking the car in the beginning, getting in a car accident in 1955, pulling Biff out of a parked car etc.) as like, Doc is with the DeLorean (I guess Doc is kind of a father figure to Marty too).

Look Back to the Future is actually the story a father and stepfather vying for a son's attention by buying him new vehicles.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Two good time travel films that haven't been mentioned are Edge of Tomorrow and Looper. Neither are masterpieces, but still solid, excellent films.
I really liked both of these. Edge of Tomorrow is maybe the only good live action manga adaptation that Hollywood has ever done.

Time travel and time loop shenanigans are pretty popular in anime too btw. Steins;Gate for example I think does Primer better than Primer does, stuff like Higurashi and Re:Zero both involve variations on loops, and of course there's the infamous Endless Eight arc of Haruhi Suzumiya. And plenty of visual novels use time loop/time travel shenanigans (Well I guess Steins;Gate is an adaptation of a VN anyways too).
Gendo wrote:Really surprised that both of you dislike Primer; I'd have thought it was right in your wheelhouse.
I can't speak for Jimbo, but I just find the character dynamics to fall completely flat in Primer and the production elements I think are just genuinely bad.

Like I'm generally into these low budget high concept movies like that but even then Primer just doesn't work for me. Upstream Color is mostly better across the board though IMO.

Carruth is also going to be retiring from filmmaking after he finishes his third film it seems, and while I don't think the dude is an idiot it sounds like he had pretty unrealistic expectations about what would being in Hollywood would be like.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Derived Absurdity wrote:It's been a long time since I've seen either, but I thought Edge of Tomorrow had basically the exact same premise as Groundhog Day. Edge of Tomorrow just gives it a sci-fi explanation, while Groundhog Day gives no explanation. But they each go back in time a bunch, so I think they're time travel.
Well Edge of Tomorrow is also tied to the action genre too, while Groundhog Day is almost solely about Murray having to get over himself.

That's also there to an extent in Edge with Cruise's character starting out as a shithead, but I wouldn't call it the main focus of that movie.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
BruceSmith78
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:20 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by BruceSmith78 »

I liked Looper too, but I liked 12 Monkeys more. I've never heard of La Jetee. I'm way out of my league in film discussions around here.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Gendo wrote:Really surprised that both of you dislike Primer; I'd have thought it was right in your wheelhouse.
It looks as cheaply as it was made. I also don't think it has anything going for it other than the convoluted plot. It's probably a film I would've liked as a kid as I liked approaching some films like puzzles to figure out, but these days if I want to solve puzzles I'll do sudokus or video games, and if a film wants me to figure it out it better give me something more than just the puzzle to hook me with. All that said, like Raxi mentioned, Caruth's Upstream Color was superb and a vast improvement over Primer.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Derived Absurdity wrote:It's been a long time since I've seen either, but I thought Edge of Tomorrow had basically the exact same premise as Groundhog Day. Edge of Tomorrow just gives it a sci-fi explanation, while Groundhog Day gives no explanation. But they each go back in time a bunch, so I think they're time travel.
Actually you make a great point, and it's rather curious why I immediately dismissed Groundhog's Day as being a time travel film but thought of The Day After Tomorrow as being one... maybe it's because the latter is sci-fi?
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Raxivace wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:I get the satirizing of Reaganite values in general, but I guess I just don't think a teenager wanting a car is indicative of those values. Kids want cars because they want freedom from their parents, not because they want lower taxes and an unrestricted free market so that they can become a John Galt.
The car itself is recognition of the McFly family's higher economic standing now though, which only exists because of Marty's changing history. I'm not saying that makes him a Randian figure necessarily, but he did profit off of it quite heavily it seems.

That's just a single way to read that ending that I'm advocating anyways. I think it can also be read as freedom from his family- particularly his father. Now that I think about it, George himself is associated just as heavily with cars in that film (Wrecking the car in the beginning, getting in a car accident in 1955, pulling Biff out of a parked car etc.) as like, Doc is with the DeLorean (I guess Doc is kind of a father figure to Marty too).

Look Back to the Future is actually the story a father and stepfather vying for a son's attention by buying him new vehicles.
I was only objecting to the notion that he was a Randian figure for wanting a car/truck, but no doubt that his actions gave his family a higher economic standard. If anything, it's more like BTTF2 was commenting on itself by making BTTF1's ending look like what he did was necessarily a positive thing. Or maybe BTTF2 is more of a cautionary tale about where that kind of outlook can lead if you don't have any morals/scruples (I mean, it's worth pointing out that Doc DOES convince Marty not to take the almanac).

LOL @ the last paragraph.
Raxivace wrote:Time travel and time loop shenanigans are pretty popular in anime too btw. Steins;Gate for example I think does Primer better than Primer does, stuff like Higurashi and Re:Zero both involve variations on loops, and of course there's the infamous Endless Eight arc of Haruhi Suzumiya. And plenty of visual novels use time loop/time travel shenanigans (Well I guess Steins;Gate is an adaptation of a VN anyways too).
"Primer better than Primer" definitely sounds interesting. I remember the controversy over HS's Endless Eight Arc on EGF when it came out.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

BruceSmith78 wrote: I'm way out of my league in film discussions around here.
Nah. Just watch movies and tell us what you think. No need to get all pretentious in reading/analyzing them like Rax. [blah]
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
BruceSmith78 wrote: I'm way out of my league in film discussions around here.
Nah. Just watch movies and tell us what you think. No need to get all pretentious in reading/analyzing them like Rax. [blah]
[laugh]
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
BruceSmith78 wrote: I'm way out of my league in film discussions around here.
Nah. Just watch movies and tell us what you think. No need to get all pretentious in reading/analyzing them like Rax. [blah]
Image

I'll remember this, Jimbo. I'll remember this. One day you'll wake up with a knife filling a hole in your back. Know now that it was from me.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I was only objecting to the notion that he was a Randian figure for wanting a car/truck, but no doubt that his actions gave his family a higher economic standard. If anything, it's more like BTTF2 was commenting on itself by making BTTF1's ending look like what he did was necessarily a positive thing. Or maybe BTTF2 is more of a cautionary tale about where that kind of outlook can lead if you don't have any morals/scruples (I mean, it's worth pointing out that Doc DOES convince Marty not to take the almanac).
Yeah its not wanting the car/truck that's the point of criticism, but more a question about how Marty gets it. But yeah I generally agree with what you're saying on BTTF2.

There are probably other ways to interpret the Marty/Biff parallels throughout the movies too. I'm still not sure where BTTF3 fits into all of this.
"Primer better than Primer" definitely sounds interesting. I remember the controversy over HS's Endless Eight Arc on EGF when it came out.
I'd probably recommend the original Steins;Gate VN over the anime FWIW but the anime is still very good in its own right and a very strong streamlined version of that story. It's not as complicated or confusing as Primer when it comes to time travel nonsense but it has the same "We accidentally invented time travel while doing something comparatively mundane" aspect as that movie and the character writing is just generally stronger IMO.

HS's Endless Eight arc is probably the ballsiest take I've seen on a time loop story if only because "Lol let's redo the same episode from scratch literally 8 times in a row" is a thing I've just flatout never seen any other show do before. The chapter from the light novels its based on is only like 20 pages too, which made the "Holy shit they're really committing to eight episodes of this?" realization all the more strong back in like 2009 or whatever when it was first airing.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

Have either of you ever seen The Good Place? It has time warps and time reversals and shit that sound somewhat similar to Endless Eight. The first episode of the second season IIRC just flat-out erases all the events of the entire first season completely and throws the entire premise of it in the trash to start new. It was pretty cool.

Anyway -

Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (1971)- This movie took a while to be cemented as a classic. I guess I can see why people didn't love it much at first. It's interesting that a lot of people think of this movie as visually colorful and bright and delightful, but the only scene like that is the chocolate room; everything before the factory has a realistic documentary-like feel, and the rest of the factory is kind of visually bland and industrial, with the exception of the tunnel scene, which is dark and horrific. There's also an interesting contrast between the extremely dry, cynical, sarcastic, understated, British sense of humor it has and its reputation as a whimsical and wholesome childrens' movie. I think Willy Wonka is more overtly and straightforwardly sinister and malicious here and less enigmatic and than many people remember; he's sarcastic and belittling towards them the very first second he meets them. There's not a lot of mystery about what he thinks or what he's doing. The only real mystery throughout is if he's actually authentically evil, which the movie definitively answers at the end. I think it was funny that the movie showed that everyone in the entire world was for some reason obsessed with Wonka bars and thought of Willy Wonka as some kind of god, and yet somehow the golden tickets ended up with seemingly the only four people in the entire world who didn't like him. I don't know about anyone else, but going from everyone worshipping Wonka in the first half of the movie to all the adults (and kids) being relentlessly condescending and hostile to him in the second half of the movie was a strange feeling. I know they're all bad, but still.

I feel like a lot of kids seeing this for the first time would be let down by the actual factory after so much build-up and suspense. I mean, it's not that great. It's sort of weird and kooky in an artificial funhouse kind of way, but nothing all that spectacular besides the chocolate room, and most of the visitors are downers and Wonka is vaguely creepy, which I am aware is the point. The chocolate river itself looks like diarrhea. I'm just saying I get why it took people so long to warm up to this movie.

People make jokes about how terrible Grandpa Joe, but, wow, he legitimately sucks. Like he is actually the villain. He's the antagonist more than Wonka or Slugworth is, in that he represents what the movie is arguing against. He's the one that persuades Charlie to drink the fizzy drink, and he tries to persuade Charlie to sell the Everlasting Gobstopper to Slugworth at the end, which would have ruined everything if Charlie had listened to him. And literally his very last words in the movie were "And what about me?" Lol. The absolute worst.

Anyway, I categorically reject this movie's moral. Charlie was shown to be the deserving one by deciding not to sell Wonka's Gobstopper to Slughworth, showing that he's humble and contrite and accepting of consequences and above seeking revenge even when given the opportunity and motive to do so. Yet I would have sold that shit immediately. Ten thousand dollars when your entire family is on the brink of destitution? Um, yeah. Respecting the intellectual property rights of some weird carnival barker child-murdering capitalist, or feeding my hard-working destitute single mother? Hmmm, not a hard choice, for me. Charlie's the type of guy who would have told the Nazis where the Jews in his house were just because he's too noble to lie, and Hitler would have given him the keys to Germany. Me, I'm against Nazis. And yet I'm the bad guy here and Charlie's so much better than me? Fuck that.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) - I don't think this one is very good, but I enjoy watching it. It's stuffy and lifeless and uncomfortable and unfunny and Johnny Depp's Wonka is one of the biggest movie misfires of all time. The backstory subplot was obviously quite lame and dumb. It's kind of bad, but for some reason I don't dislike it. I think Tim Burton's airless and airbrushed and and kitschy and plastic style actually works for this movie in a way that it doesn't anywhere else. Every single one of the kids was much better, except maybe Charlie, but I don't think anyone cares much about Charlie either way so it's fine. There were a few small things the movie did right - giving Grandpa Joe a connection to the factory to justify Charlie taking him instead of his mother, the modern updating of Mike Teevee, making the chocolate river actually look like chocolate instead of sewer waste, and making all the kids worse. I kind of liked the ending showing the kids actually making it out alive, as opposed to the 1971 version where we assume they're all literally dead. Where if anyone deserves to die, it's their guardians. Violet Beauregarde in both versions here is far and away the best character and is quite obviously the correct choice for Wonka's replacement.
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Derived Absurdity wrote:Have either of you ever seen The Good Place? It has time warps and time reversals and shit that sound somewhat similar to Endless Eight. The first episode of the second season IIRC just flat-out erases all the events of the entire first season completely and throws the entire premise of it in the trash to start new. It was pretty cool.
Haven't seen it. What you're describing kind of sounds like the internal reboots that I'm told American comic books have done over the years, though its interesting to hear that a regular TV show did something like that.

As far as Willie Wonka goes I would have to watch it again, I don't think I've seen it since I was 12.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

Also Deep Roy made the new one entertaining enough.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Raxivace wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
BruceSmith78 wrote: I'm way out of my league in film discussions around here.
Nah. Just watch movies and tell us what you think. No need to get all pretentious in reading/analyzing them like Rax. [blah]
I'll remember this, Jimbo. I'll remember this. One day you'll wake up with a knife filling a hole in your back. Know now that it was from me.
Going for a backstab, eh? Not if I parry you first!

...

Who am I kidding? I suck at parrying. Might as well offer my back to you now. :(
Raxivace wrote:
"Primer better than Primer" definitely sounds interesting. I remember the controversy over HS's Endless Eight Arc on EGF when it came out.
I'd probably recommend the original Steins;Gate VN over the anime FWIW but the anime is still very good in its own right and a very strong streamlined version of that story. It's not as complicated or confusing as Primer when it comes to time travel nonsense but it has the same "We accidentally invented time travel while doing something comparatively mundane" aspect as that movie and the character writing is just generally stronger IMO.

HS's Endless Eight arc is probably the ballsiest take I've seen on a time loop story if only because "Lol let's redo the same episode from scratch literally 8 times in a row" is a thing I've just flatout never seen any other show do before. The chapter from the light novels its based on is only like 20 pages too, which made the "Holy shit they're really committing to eight episodes of this?" realization all the more strong back in like 2009 or whatever when it was first airing.
VN? Video novel? Or something else? Still sounds pretty interesting.

Yeah, I remember when EE came out and how even then I thought it sounded really audacious/ballsy. If I ever get back into anime, HS is a show that would be high on my priority list in general.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Who am I kidding? I suck at parrying. Might as well offer my back to you now. :(
I never bothered learning to parry because tbh it just seemed like it would make that game too easy. It's not like you really need to do it anyways to just destroy dudes.
VN? Video novel? Or something else? Still sounds pretty interesting.
Visual novel.
Yeah, I remember when EE came out and how even then I thought it sounded really audacious/ballsy. If I ever get back into anime, HS is a show that would be high on my priority list in general.
Yeah I'd love to know what you think of it if you ever get around to watching it.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

Uh speaking of Shane Carruth... (The bottom right hand of the picture).

Why on Earth would you intentionally tweet out something like that?
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Raxivace wrote:
Eva Yojimbo wrote:Who am I kidding? I suck at parrying. Might as well offer my back to you now. :(
I never bothered learning to parry because tbh it just seemed like it would make that game too easy. It's not like you really need to do it anyways to just destroy dudes.
I tried doing it early on when I was soul grinding in Undead Burg, but even with constant practice I could only time it right maybe 75%-80% of the time. Seems like backstabs were much easier actually.
Raxivace wrote:Uh speaking of Shane Carruth... (The bottom right hand of the picture).

Why on Earth would you intentionally tweet out something like that?
I'm sure he did it without realizing that restraining order was in the shot. TBH it took me a minute to realize it was there myself.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

Secretary (2002) - A movie depicting an D/s relationship between a typist and her boss. It's known informally as the original and superior version of Fifty Shades of Grey. It's cute. Nothing special. It was probably considered edgy when it first came out. It started off awkward and rocky. Her boss seemed to have some kind of sixth sense, because he seemed to immediately realize that being sexually dominated was what she was into, before he even got to know her at all. He was a domineering jerk from the very first second he met her, before she even the chance to give off any signs that she was into that shit. That was weird to me. This movie is contrasted with Fifty Shades for supposedly depicting a D/s relationship that is healthy and positive, and yet even apart from the rocky start, I don't think any sexual relationship between a boss and their subordinate could be 100% healthy. And this movie gave evidence of that, because her boss eventually fired her and threw her out on the street because he was disgusted by his own desires. You see, that's why you don't get involved with your boss.

Hot Summer Nights (2017) - This movie was oddly empty and lifeless. It was filled to the brim with virtually every single dumb cliche you could possibly imagine. It was basically a pastiche of several dozen other, better movies.

Being John Malkovich (1999) - Yeah, it was clever and creative. But I can't remember a movie ever making me feel so fucking shitty. This was the most horrible, nihilistic, depressing, empty, bleak, soul-crushing movie I have ever seen. Every single character - literally every single one - was a complete sociopath. A toxic worthless gangrenous wound of a human being. For an empath this movie must be extremely unpleasant to sit through. There isn't a tiny, minuscule shred of decency or soul or heart or empathy in the entire thing. I'm almost impressed. I've never seen a mainstream movie as deeply, profoundly heartless and nasty as this one.

And it was indeed clever and creative, like I said, but not profound or brilliant by any stretch. There were three moments in it that were genuinely funny.

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) - I kind of think I was convinced of this movie's timeless greatness for a few years by the critics, because I have to say it's not really all that. It's definitely very good. Creative, clever, imaginative, well-made. Very surreal and wacky. But it's not intellectually or existentially profound or psychologically complex or deep, or even emotionally moving, maybe because I found Clementine so unlikable and grating. I also felt the ending bordered on nihilistic, which I'm not sure was intended. Just watched it for the first time in years and was a bit underwhelmed.
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

Kaufman has a new one coming soon; looking forward to it.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Derived Absurdity wrote:Being John Malkovich (1999) - This was the most horrible, nihilistic, depressing, empty, bleak, soul-crushing movie I have ever seen.
Wait until you see the film Kaufmann directed (and wrote) called Synecdoche, New York. It's just as "clever" as BJM, but I found it much better and more profound; but it's extremely nihilistic, depressing, bleak, soul-crushing, etc. I just think it does those things better and feels more substantial doing it. I'd even say it's one of this century's flat-out masterpieces. Before his death, Ebert actually talked about being torn between SNY and Tree of Life for which modern film to include in his 10 all-time favorites for Sight and Sound's poll.
Derived Absurdity wrote:Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004) - I kind of think I was convinced of this movie's timeless greatness for a few years by the critics, because I have to say it's not really all that. It's definitely very good. Creative, clever, imaginative, well-made. Very surreal and wacky. But it's not intellectually or existentially profound or psychologically complex or deep, or even emotionally moving, maybe because I found Clementine so unlikable and grating. I also felt the ending bordered on nihilistic, which I'm not sure was intended. Just watched it for the first time in years and was a bit underwhelmed.
We mostly agree here. I do think it's an excellent film for the reasons you listed, and I have great admiration for its directorial vision/style, but I wasn't really moved by it emotionally or intellectually as a work of art. If you want to see one of the films that inspired it, check out Alain Resnais's Je 't'aime, je' t'aime. I won't say it's better or worse (I liked them about equally), but it's very interesting.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

Thanks for the rec; I'll check it out.

I was more bothered by BJM's juxtaposition than anything else, the fact that its tone was so happy and wacky and casual and the things it depicted were so horrific and nasty and disturbing. I felt like the movie itself was horrific and nasty and disturbing. It was like listening to some guy jauntily and airily describing something that is profoundly disturbing and depressing. Like my reaction is, "Holy shit, you're a fucking sociopath."

If the movie is actually conscious of the fact that the things it is depicting is, in fact, horrific and nasty and disturbing, that's different. I'm disturbed with it, not at it. That sounds like SNY.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Derived Absurdity wrote:I was more bothered by BJM's juxtaposition than anything else, the fact that its tone was so happy and wacky and casual and the things it depicted were so horrific and nasty and disturbing. I felt like the movie itself was horrific and nasty and disturbing. It was like listening to some guy jauntily and airily describing something that is profoundly disturbing and depressing. Like my reaction is, "Holy shit, you're a fucking sociopath."

If the movie is actually conscious of the fact that the things it is depicting is, in fact, horrific and nasty and disturbing, that's different. I'm disturbed with it, not at it. That sounds like SNY.
You're basically just describing the entire genre of dark comedy. BJM perhaps goes a bit further into the "dark" aspect than most, but that seems to be Kaufman's thing. All of his films seem to mix depressing subject matter with comedy, though to different degrees. BJM is probably his most extreme contrast/juxtaposition, and I think it works mostly on that level. The lighter you keep the tone/mood, the more it makes the disturbing/depressing stuff stand out. I'm also pretty damn sure it's aware what it's depicting is pretty horrific. I feel like his later films toned down the comedy aspect and tended to lean into the depressing tone more. Not completely, but going on memory it seems like there was slightly less comedy in Adaptation, much less in Eternal Sunshine, even less in SNY, and I don't recall much in Anomalisa.

When you say "that sounds like SNY" are you saying you've seen SNY?
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

I would have recommended Synecdoche, New York, but I just assumed you'd either seen it or would be watching it soon anyway since you were watching other Kaufman. And while you're at it, Adaptation is pretty great as well, though not as much so as the others probably.
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

I saw SNW a long time ago when I was younger but I don't remember it much and I should see it again soon.

BJM is possibly dark comedy, but it wasn't really "dark", it was just mean. That's different.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Gendo wrote:I would have recommended Synecdoche, New York, but I just assumed you'd either seen it or would be watching it soon anyway since you were watching other Kaufman. And while you're at it, Adaptation is pretty great as well, though not as much so as the others probably.
TBH I think Adaptation is only behind SNY for my favorite Kaufman, but I tend to have a soft-spot for narratively twisty metafiction.
Derived Absurdity wrote:BJM is possibly dark comedy, but it wasn't really "dark", it was just mean. That's different.
Meanness could be a kind of darkness I guess.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
Faustus5
Super Poster
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:08 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Faustus5 »

Charlie Kaufman is my favorite screen writer of all time.
User avatar
Raxivace
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Raxivace »

I have to see SNY and his later stuff myself, I quite liked BJM and Adaptation.

Adaptation also makes kind of an interesting thematic trilogy with Sullivan's Travels and Barton Fink, come to think of it.
"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris
User avatar
Gendo
Site Admin
Posts: 2882
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Gendo »

Seven Psychopaths has a similar thing going on also.
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

Just finished The Twilight Zone. Out of the fourth season, the only two episodes I liked were Miniature and On Thursday We Leave For Home, both of which I thought were perfect hours of television and easily two of the show's best episodes. On Thursday We Leave For Home, while not unpredictable, packs a pretty good emotional punch at the end that I didn't think the show was capable of, even with the hour-long format. I also think Miniature deserves quite a lot of credit for its, frankly, astonishingly accurate and perceptive and sensitive portrayal of autism, especially for a time when the condition wasn't even known well, let alone accepted. Far, far better than any other screen portrayal I've ever seen, including the ones with the benefit of coming out sixty or seventy years later. It was extremely good, and also sad.

In the fifth season I liked Nightmare at 20,000 Feet, The Living Doll, The Old Man in the Cave, The Long Morrow, Number 12 Looks Just Like You, and Night Call. The fifth season was more darker and more bitter than the previous ones. The karmic retributions became more random and unbalanced, with sad endings more common.

I enjoyed the show for the most part. It was very self-righteously judgmental in places, with its primary target being other people who were self-righteously judgmental. It was a very big fan of retributive justice, at least until the end. The Zone itself can be disturbing and unpredictable, but apparently one silver lining it has is that assholes typically get what's coming to them. It was also very preachy at times. This show has a reputation for being creepy or scary, but only a small handful of episodes even tried to be either. It had just as many comedy episodes as horror-themed ones. It was primarily just sci-fi/fantasy/social commentary.

Out of all the episodes, the ones I liked the most (not the ones I think are "the best") are Time Enough at Last (as far as I can tell its big idea is that existence is stupid and bad, which is something I can get behind), A Stop at Willoughby (relatable, extremely), A Passage for Trumpet (melancholic and moving), The After Hours (mostly because Anne Francis was cute in it), Two (two actors moving around with no dialogue can be fascinating if there's meaning behind it), The Shelter (a "humans show their true nature when society breaks down" story that seemed realistic and earned, not exaggerated or hokey), A Game of Pool (Jack Klugman was great and the characterization was perfect, basically), Miniature, and On Thursday We Leave for Home.
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

I've seen like a hundred things in the past few months, but I didn't note them here, because... I just didn't feel like it. Felt like a lot of time and effort. But I'll just say some stuff about some of the ones I remember.

Nightcrawler - This is one of my favorite movies ever. I think it's perfect as a metaphor/deconstruction of capitalism, and Jake Gyllenhaal gives one of the best performances ever. He is capitalism embodied. Listening to his character babble in meaningless corporate-speak is fucking hilarious to me every single time. The only mild criticism I think I have of this movie is that the ending registers to me as a bit weak compared to the rest of the movie, although I can't think of how it could be improved.

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - I haven't seen this is in a long time. I think it's okay, at best. The best thing about it is the acting and the characters. Watching it recently, I took a much different message from it than the world at large seems to have done. All I saw was some egotistic racist asshole (Murphy) who was accused of statutory rape swindle his way into a mental institution, bully and mock and condescend to the inmates there, and just generally act like a spoiled douchebag. Nurse Ratched was much less evil than I remember; it's debatable whether she was even evil at all, and even if she was she was almost sympathetic compared to Murphy. I don't see the anti-authoritarian or anti-conformist message here that everyone else does. Our hero is a piece of shit and none of the authority figures are even that bad, or at least are better than him. I also think it's odd that (if the movie does indeed mean for us to take that message away from it) it codes the rebels/victims all as white men (with one Native American) and all the evil authority figures as women and black men. This movie is just 70s white male anxiety; maybe that's why it was lauded so much.

The Boys (season 2) - not nearly as good as the first season. Very formless, shapeless plot. Nothing much progresses for several episodes at a time. Out of the large cast of characters only two were compelling and interesting. The satire became much more overtly political and topical and, thus, generally, dumber. There was a hint of an interesting idea here about America's complicated relationship with Nazism and about how we're generally pretty sympathetic to the idea if we just ditch the aesthetics and the name, but it didn't do anything very smart with it. The first season wasn't very smart either, but it was at least interesting and clever and fun; this one wasn't very. The satire of this show basically amounts to gesturing vaguely at a few things about our world (corporatism, militarism, media propaganda, evangelical Christianity) and toothlessly saying "See these things? Yeah, they're bad."

The world of the show is actually less horrid and stupid than the real one it's attempting to satirize. The world of the show is a world where all of your public support can immediately and categorically vanish if you're outed as a Nazi, or if you're caught on tape engaging in war crimes. That's very cute and very wholesome. That is, decidedly, not the world we actually live in. If you're trying to do trenchant commentary and the world you depict is less bad than the world you're satirizing, then your satire is extremely naive.
User avatar
Eva Yojimbo
Ultra Poster
Posts: 995
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:34 pm
Location: The Land of Cows and Twisters

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Eva Yojimbo »

Derived Absurdity wrote:Just finished The Twilight Zone.
Great series. I watched them all as a kid and still vividly remember certain episodes. Shame I watched them back when I wasn't aware of seasons or even ep. titles/numbers because I find it hard to talk about all these years later because I don't usually remember which was which. I should probably make it a point to rewatch the whole thing.
Derived Absurdity wrote:Nightcrawler
I loved this too, and is definitely one that's stuck with me. Almost certainly Gyllenhaal's greatest performance/character. Back when I saw it I thought it was more just a commentary on the corruption of media by money, but I guess you could definitely read it as an attack on capitalism in general. I'd probably have to rewatch it to say more, but I do think it's at least a great commentary on how capitalism has no place in certain sectors, with the news being one of them.
Derived Absurdity wrote:One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - I haven't seen this is in a long time. I think it's okay, at best. The best thing about it is the acting and the characters.
I think you basically nailed it. I think it's a solid film just for those two factors, but beyond that I don't think it's deserving of its reputation. Forman made much better films before and after it.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." -- Carl Jung
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

I'll expand on Nightcrawler on my latest thread when I get there, but yes, it's one of the sharpest, funniest, and most effective attacks on capitalism I've seen in a mainstream movie. It's definitely not just about the media.
User avatar
maz89
Ultra Poster
Posts: 805
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:01 pm

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by maz89 »

Derived Absurdity wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:05 am
The Boys (season 2) - not nearly as good as the first season. Very formless, shapeless plot. Nothing much progresses for several episodes at a time. Out of the large cast of characters only two were compelling and interesting. The satire became much more overtly political and topical and, thus, generally, dumber. There was a hint of an interesting idea here about America's complicated relationship with Nazism and about how we're generally pretty sympathetic to the idea if we just ditch the aesthetics and the name, but it didn't do anything very smart with it. The first season wasn't very smart either, but it was at least interesting and clever and fun; this one wasn't very. The satire of this show basically amounts to gesturing vaguely at a few things about our world (corporatism, militarism, media propaganda, evangelical Christianity) and toothlessly saying "See these things? Yeah, they're bad."

The world of the show is actually less horrid and stupid than the real one it's attempting to satirize. The world of the show is a world where all of your public support can immediately and categorically vanish if you're outed as a Nazi, or if you're caught on tape engaging in war crimes. That's very cute and very wholesome. That is, decidedly, not the world we actually live in. If you're trying to do trenchant commentary and the world you depict is less bad than the world you're satirizing, then your satire is extremely naive.
What did you think of the third season? The satire seems less naive to me in it.
"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"
Derived Absurdity
Ultimate Poster
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:07 am

Re: 2020 stuff

Post by Derived Absurdity »

Yeah, a bit, particularly the very last scene and the scene about halfway through the season with Homelander's public temper tantrum. They both read to me as the writers becoming much more cynical and clear-eyed about the American public.

Apart from that I thought the satire in general was pretty silly. Very surface-level and superficial. It had none of the depth or intelligence of the satire of the first season.

As for my thoughts on the third season in general I think it sucked. It just intensified all the problems it had in the second season. Even then it might have been okay if not for the finale, which was one of the most bizarrely terrible finales of any show I've ever seen.
Post Reply