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Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:10 pm
by Pope Bucky
"If they hadn't published the cartoon, they would be alive today."
"If they hadn't been free, they would be alive today."
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:13 pm
by LSK
Cassius Clay wrote:LSK wrote:Liszt's post, and your summary of it, make a different point altogether than "Charlie Hebdo's actions weren't harmless," which is victim-blaming. I agree that imperialist foreign actions do great harm and that they should be objected to (just as murder-catalyzed-by-blasphemy should be objected to).
No, they don't make a different point. They are relevantly connected in a way you either don't see or just don't agree with.
And it is not merely blasphemy, it is hate speech.
Erm, they
do make a different point. You might think they're "relevantly connected," but that means they're different points. The same point can't be relevantly connected to itself.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:20 pm
by Gendo
Gypsy-Vanner wrote:You can type Tara. Gypsy Vanner is annoying to type in my opinion. I almost regret picking that name.
![[laugh]](./images/smilies/imdb_laugh.gif "laugh")
I'll prolly keep calling you Dragon, or Tara. Also, lemme know if you feel like changing screennames; it's easy enough to do.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:21 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Ok thanks!
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:24 pm
by Gendo
Derived Absurdity wrote:I agree with Castor, I am correct.
I agree with Dork.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:25 pm
by Cassius Clay
Pope Bucky wrote:"If they hadn't published the cartoon, they would be alive today."
"If they hadn't been free, they would be alive today."
No, if their society/government wasn't oppressive and evil, they would be alive today.
We need moar context up in here.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:27 pm
by sikax
Cassius Clay wrote:No, if their society/government wasn't oppressive and evil, they would be alive today.
You're victim-blaming.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:31 pm
by Cassius Clay
LSK wrote:Cassius Clay wrote:LSK wrote:Liszt's post, and your summary of it, make a different point altogether than "Charlie Hebdo's actions weren't harmless," which is victim-blaming. I agree that imperialist foreign actions do great harm and that they should be objected to (just as murder-catalyzed-by-blasphemy should be objected to).
No, they don't make a different point. They are relevantly connected in a way you either don't see or just don't agree with.
And it is not merely blasphemy, it is hate speech.
Erm, they
do make a different point. You might think they're "relevantly connected," but that means they're different points. The same point can't be relevantly connected to itself.
![[eyes]](./images/smilies/eyes.gif "eyes")
Pedantic.
If the first thing I say is that it's
not a "different point altogether", that's exactly what I mean.
Saying, "well, how can they be connected if it's not a different point? a point can't be connected to itself." Is childish.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:32 pm
by Cassius Clay
sikax wrote:Cassius Clay wrote:No, if their society/government wasn't oppressive and evil, they would be alive today.
You're victim-blaming.
I don't know if you're serious, but blaming their racist society(at least partially) is not victim-blaming.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:37 pm
by sikax
I'm not serious. We're in agreement. I expressed my agreement with Liszt's post and so did you, so I thought we were on the same page. Carry on.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:37 pm
by LSK
You were being inconsistent, Castor, which can be confusing. I value clarity in conversations because the points being argued can be easily lost.
I don't think I've behaved in a way where rolling your eyes at me and calling me pedantic and childish is fair. It's certainly no way to engage in a discussion with someone who has been, I think, pretty charitable throughout the conversation.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:41 pm
by Gendo
To use an extreme example, is it victim-blaming to say that a murderer wouldn't have gone to jail if he hadn't murdered someone? Of course not (or, even if it is technically still victim-blaming, it's not of the sort that people would say is wrong to do). So, in thinking about why it's ok in that case to "victim-blame" the murderer, I figure it's because the murderer did something that was wrong in-and-of-itself... not wrong because it had consequences.
This is where it's different from the drunk girl. The drunk girl didn't do anything wrong. She wasn't hurting anyone. Dragon said "They drawing cartoons ridiculing a religion is harmful as they could then be murdered" to draw a comparison. The problem with this sentence is that it implies that their cartoons were only harmful because of possible consequences against them, just like the drunk girl's actions are only harmful because of consequences against her. But this is wrong. The cartoons (at least the ones that sikax posted), aren't harmless. They aren't just mocking religion. They are harmful and oppressive; targeting an oppressed minority.
Was it right that they were killed for it? Of course not! I don't think anyone would argue that.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:50 pm
by sikax
^ That's what I was getting at when I said the girl couldn't expect consequences for drinking. It's because she's not doing any real harm in drinking. But, yes, Hedbo is doing directly harming things.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:05 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
I'll have to think about that. The first thing that popped into my head is that there sure are a whole lot of people out there that feel that a drunk or scantily clad women is most definitely harmful to everyone around her. We have all read the comments sections of articles about a rape. A woman dressing in short shorts and halter top is portraying a "wanton" attitude that apparently encourages other women to behave recklessly which results in STD's and pregnancies and all that jazz.
Either way I'll give it some thought. I think perhaps the rape analogy isn't as firm as I might have thought.
I'm just not sure one can answer no to the question "did the cartoons contribute to the death of the cartoonists" considering the dialog we've been having. If they do I feel it's contradictory to their stance then. But I'll have to really think it through as to why I feel this.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:07 pm
by Cassius Clay
sikax wrote:I'm not serious. We're in agreement. I expressed my agreement with Liszt's post and so did you, so I thought we were on the same page. Carry on.
Ok. Cool.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:12 pm
by Cassius Clay
LSK wrote:You were being inconsistent, Castor, which can be confusing. I value clarity in conversations because the points being argued can be easily lost.
I don't think I've behaved in a way where rolling your eyes at me and calling me pedantic and childish is fair. It's certainly no way to engage in a discussion with someone who has been, I think, pretty charitable throughout the conversation.
Fine. I sensed unnecessary hostility in your response. Especially since you thought you needed to explain that one point is different than two connected points. That's not necessary.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:18 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Both of you stop tone policing.
![[uhoh]](./images/smilies/uhoh.gif "uhoh")
Ok, I'll go.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:23 pm
by Cassius Clay
LSK wrote:Cassius Clay wrote:The cartoon Sikax most recently posted with the bullets going through the building and hitting the mosque suggests that Islamophobia and harm to Muslims is caused by these terrorists actions. No, harm to Muslims is caused by racism and Western Imperialism.
These are not exclusive. Attitudes aren't socially determined by one factor.
The point is to recognize the root so that the burden of responsibility stays with those with abusive power. Justifications put responsibility on the abused (or, at least, shift it from abuser).
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:30 pm
by Cassius Clay
sikax wrote: I don't understand. We should all support a racist publication when they're threatened with violence? I don't want to condone either. If anything I'll try and reason with the attackers if I was caught in the middle, but I certainly don't feel obligated to "support blasphemy".
Exactly. We don't have to condone violence. But we don't need to stand in solidarity with violent hate speech either.
People are acting like it's simply one or the other. That's where the idea of victim-blaming is coming from. There are issues where it is simply one or the other (like blaming rape victims or not)...this isn't one of those issues.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:44 pm
by sikax
I cannot imagine it being an acceptable thing to do to in the 1960s to stand by the racist publications of newspapers that were protested against by blacks (even if the protest was violent) in places like New York City and Oakland. Hell to the fucking no. The retaliation to hate speech is something I support. Not murder, but I can't fathom that I ever need to support the racists simply because their so-called freedom of speech is being threatened. And it's not like the attackers in Paris or the Black Panthers ever were fighting against the concept of free speech; they were fighting against the oppression and racism that were expressed in the content of someone taking advantage of that free speech. To dismiss the hateful publication as something as simply "distasteful" or "stupid" is a really really regressive thing to do; it's much more than that.
And what about laws? Or wars? Does this "support" apply to everything that's protested against? Or does it only apply when violence is utilized? Like I've said, I obviously don't condone murder, but if I were an advocate for getting hate speech out of a newspaper all the way up to the point that someone pissed off about it actually killed the artist, I can't just back out and suddenly start supporting the artist. I'm firmly against hate speech as a concept and that's not going to change because of a terrible incident like this.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:15 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Let's not get confused here. LSK is certainly not saying we should be supporting the cartoonists beliefs. What he is saying is we should support their right to have that belief. I think that's a very important distinction here.
As I said in that other thread, violence begets violence. As we can plainly see with the fact that Mosques are being hit right and left now in France and even other countries. We should never remain silent on violence like this regardless of who is involved and their motivations.
It's possible to condemn the murders whilst having a very separate conversation about the root of evil in the Middle East (being western countries). You tell anit-muslims that those cartoonists could have avoided being murdered if they hadn't contributed to the imperialistic mentality of their government you'll have a bunch of very angry anti-muslims some of which won't shy away from violence as retribution.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:24 pm
by sikax
LSK wrote:sikax wrote:LSK wrote:When people who are willing to do violence threaten that violence in response to blasphemy (or other free speech actions that Westerners tend to value), that blasphemy deserves our special protection and support.
I don't understand. We should all support a racist publication when they're threatened with violence? I don't want to condone either. If anything I'll try and reason with the attackers if I was caught in the middle, but I certainly don't feel obligated to "support blasphemy".
If the blasphemy is such that a not-insignificant group of people (I realize that is somewhat vague) is willing to kill over it—which is completely, existentially hostile to the liberal values we otherwise enjoy and support—then yes, I think
we should feel compelled to support that blasphemy, even if we think it's stupid and tasteless.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:26 pm
by sikax
I know intuitively that that's probably not exactly what he meant, but that's what he said and without clarification that's what I'm responding to.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:42 pm
by LSK
Happy to clarify—I did not, in fact, mean that we should feel compelled to support the specific content of the blasphemy but rather the act of the blasphemy (whatever its content).
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:44 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Ok, I see what you mean but I'm somewhat confident he meant it in the sense of supporting their right to that opinion, not the opinion itself. But...I may be wrong so I'll just let him clarify what he means.
Oops, Edit to say that he already responded as I was typing the above so never mind!
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:12 pm
by sikax
LSK wrote:Happy to clarify—I did not, in fact, mean that we should feel compelled to support the specific content of the blasphemy but rather the act of the blasphemy (whatever its content).
I can appreciate that view, but not sure I totally agree or that it makes much of a difference as to its intentions. Blasphemy, hate speech, racism, whatever I call it, is mostly indistinguishable in its intentions and I therefore can't imagine ever wanting to support it. Supporting the concept of free speech I believe is separate from "siding" with someone who publishes hate speech. There is definite harm being done, ya know?
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:27 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Sikax, wouldn't you prefer to know who the bigots and racists are? If we start limiting speech that we subjectively consider hate speech then those people will "disappear". In the sense that they'll go underground and will work behind the scenes. That scares me.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:32 pm
by sikax
Well, there's me, a privileged white heterosexual male living in a first world country...and then there are the people who are the targets of such racism and hate speech. I'm more concerned about how they feel about being trampled on every day of their lives than my knowledge of the identity of some piece of shit journalist.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:41 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
I believe that is focusing on the wrong part of the issue. We can't fix the terrible things our country has done if we don't know who the enemy is and the victims of our foreign policy don't give a shit about our white guilt. They don't care that you and I may feel really bad about what they are going through. They just want us to fix the issue. And only we can do to as the group that holds the power in this country. White people. We dictate policy so we must start putting pressure on the government to stop using atrocious policy to protect their oil interests.
I mean, if I went up to Troy and told him I was really sorry about that women who applied black makeup to appear as a famous rapper he'd probably punch me and I wouldn't blame him. These people in the middle east do not want our interference with anything including focusing on the prejudice they endure each day.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:47 pm
by Dr_Liszt
It's not that I want to limit speech. I guess the issue is that the public is very quick to jump, boycott and denounce oppression when it comes to other issues. One example that comes to mind is when they cancelled that duck tv show because of the anti-gay sentiments. And what the man said was not remotely as offensive as what the Charlie guys did. Yet people responded.
I don't know how to feel about this, since it was stuff like this that led to Jewish hate in Nazi Germany. To me this sounds like a repeat in history but with Arab Muslims.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:57 pm
by sikax
Gypsy-Vanner wrote:I believe that is focusing on the wrong part of the issue. We can't fix the terrible things our country has done if we don't know who the enemy is and the victims of our foreign policy don't give a shit about our white guilt. They don't care that you and I may feel really bad about what they are going through. They just want us to fix the issue. And only we can do to as the group that holds the power in this country. White people. We dictate policy so we must start putting pressure on the government to stop using atrocious policy to protect their oil interests.
I mean, if I went up to Troy and told him I was really sorry about that women who applied black makeup to appear as a famous rapper he'd probably punch me and I wouldn't blame him. These people in the middle east do not want our interference with anything including focusing on the prejudice they endure each day.
I'm not sure I dictate any policy in this country.
![[hmm]](./images/smilies/hmm.gif "hmm")
I also wasn't suggesting going around apologizing to members of oppressed groups and, as is evidenced by my sentiments in Troy's thread on the Hades board, I would never dream of assuming the right to speak on anyone's feelings about their own experiences. You're suggesting that the reason we don't condemn hate speech a bit more is so those people spewing it are left out in the open for us to identify. I mean, the damage is still being done. It's 2015 and what Hebdo posts is parallel to the blatantly racist anti-Asian/-German/-Soviet cartoons of 20th century America. Shit's been "exposed" for a while now. No end in sight.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:31 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
Of course it is and that's because nobody is speaking loud enough about the driving force behind the hate. Corporations are flooding society with anti-muslim crap and people are gobbling it up because there's no loud dissenting voice out there. I mean, American-Muslims can talk till their blue in the face about the root of the issue but unless white people take a stand and start educating everyone Muslims are screwed.
The "shits been exposed for a while now. No end in sight" seems fairly fatalistic to me. Such sentiments are not helpful. The only way to combat this issue is to expose the foundation of the hate and make sure to have every shred of evidence you can find to support your stance. And then speak loud. Really loud (metaphorically and literally). Flood society with the truth. That is how we fix this thing.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:36 pm
by Gypsy-Vanner
And oh, I didn't realize there was another convo going on the other board. I had already deleted the link to that board. Oops.
Re: Another terrorist attack (likely) motivated by Western satire
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:14 am
by BruceSmith78
Gendo wrote:To use an extreme example, is it victim-blaming to say that a murderer wouldn't have gone to jail if he hadn't murdered someone? Of course not (or, even if it is technically still victim-blaming, it's not of the sort that people would say is wrong to do). So, in thinking about why it's ok in that case to "victim-blame" the murderer, I figure it's because the murderer did something that was wrong in-and-of-itself... not wrong because it had consequences.
This is where it's different from the drunk girl. The drunk girl didn't do anything wrong. She wasn't hurting anyone. Dragon said "They drawing cartoons ridiculing a religion is harmful as they could then be murdered" to draw a comparison. The problem with this sentence is that it implies that their cartoons were only harmful because of possible consequences against them, just like the drunk girl's actions are only harmful because of consequences against her. But this is wrong. The cartoons (at least the ones that sikax posted), aren't harmless. They aren't just mocking religion. They are harmful and oppressive; targeting an oppressed minority.
Was it right that they were killed for it? Of course not! I don't think anyone would argue that.
This is exactly what I wanted to post very early on in the thread, even before Dragon's analogy. I still haven't caught up with the rest of the posts though.