The Pitters' Place

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/30/8518681/pr ... riots-work

This is something I've been wondering since Ferguson and now Baltimore. Many people argue that the protests should be peaceful, and that riots don't do anything to help a group's cause. I'm ashamed that I'm not as well acquainted with history beyond what I was taught in high school, having taken mostly science courses and some philosophy courses in my higher education, but this argument always seemed false to me. There have been plenty of riots that have led to change, if I recall correctly. Although, as the article points out, riots can lead to backlash as well.

Those arguing that protests should be peaceful are typically the group that have contributed to the deeper issue at hand. It seems more like "tone-policing" to me and just another way to manipulate discriminated groups and discredit their cause.

Monk wrote:http://www.vox.com/2015/4/30/8518681/pr ... riots-work

This is something I've been wondering since Ferguson and now Baltimore. Many people argue that the protests should be peaceful, and that riots don't do anything to help a group's cause. I'm ashamed that I'm not as well acquainted with history beyond what I was taught in high school, having taken mostly science courses and some philosophy courses in my higher education, but this argument always seemed false to me. There have been plenty of riots that have led to change, if I recall correctly. Although, as the article points out, riots can lead to backlash as well.

Peaceful or not it's the organization and support behind what makes a difference. If you recall the UK had riots years ago that led to nothing and only destroyed historic buildings. But also France had some that did took down a law.

The difference is that France's people tend to full support when stuff like this happen.

If I recall correctly martin Luther king's protests weren't 100 % peaceful. So if I were you my children, I'd support them and back them up if the movement starts to grow. If they start blockading the highways, your cities should also blockade theirs. You know... Join the revolution!

I do condemn collateral damage though and yes they should be peaceful, of course it's angering when it happens. But social change never happens without hurting the economy first. I hope they evolve from taking the streets to really hurting the government where it really hurts.

It's interesting to think of just what concrete changes could be made. The problem is the racist and trigger-happy mindset of cops, right? The fact that they're murdering black people for no reason. There aren't any laws that could be changed to stop that, but there ought to be ways to make the cop accountable. Right now the system caters to the cops' image, but ironically the fact that each and every cop has gotten away with murder has been more detrimental to the cops' image. If the government thought this through and truly wanted peace and for the image of cops to be a bit better, at least one cop should be convicted of a crime. Then people would be like, "OK, maybe there is some justice in this country after all." But that ain't happening, when it should, and people get more and more pissed, rightfully so.

But I digress. What concrete things could change to hold murderers accountable? Put a camera on his chest? That could help, but there have been cases when the shooting was filmed and the cop still got off. So, that's not 100%.

What else? Changes in the courts? I don't know. My point is there need to be tangible goals here, not just telling cops to stop being racist and stupid.

Cops killing black people is just a symptom of the racial injustice as a whole in this country and the world as a whole due to imperialism. We won't be rid of it completely until a massive societal paradigm shift happens.

On the subject of riots, there were peaceful protests for days leading up to Freddie Gray's funeral; only after Baltimore started burning did a national discussion begin to take place. If that's what needed to happen to wake people up, then so be it.

sikax wrote:It's interesting to think of just what concrete changes could be made. The problem is the racist and trigger-happy mindset of cops, right? The fact that they're murdering black people for no reason. There aren't any laws that could be changed to stop that, but there ought to be ways to make the cop accountable. Right now the system caters to the cops' image, but ironically the fact that each and every cop has gotten away with murder has been more detrimental to the cops' image. If the government thought this through and truly wanted peace and for the image of cops to be a bit better, at least one cop should be convicted of a crime. Then people would be like, "OK, maybe there is some justice in this country after all." But that ain't happening, when it should, and people get more and more pissed, rightfully so.

But I digress. What concrete things could change to hold murderers accountable? Put a camera on his chest? That could help, but there have been cases when the shooting was filmed and the cop still got off. So, that's not 100%.

What else? Changes in the courts? I don't know. My point is there need to be tangible goals here, not just telling cops to stop being racist and stupid.

As Boomer said, I don't think it's just cop killing blacks. The article goes into detail about it, but this is largely a reaction to a long term and systemic problem that's culminated into riots. And to answer your question, politicians have already been discussing the need to change the justice system (on both left and right), and I wouldn't be surprised if these riots and those in Ferguson hastened reform.

Monk wrote:As Boomer said, I don't think it's just cop killing blacks. The article goes into detail about it, but this is largely a reaction to a long term and systemic problem that's culminated into riots. And to answer your question, politicians have already been discussing the need to change the justice system (on both left and right), and I wouldn't be surprised if these riots and those in Ferguson hastened reform.

Yes yes I get that it's a symptom of a largely racist society, but that symptom is what's triggering this response right now. It could be another thing tomorrow. The point is, though, that changes can still be enacted upon this symptom even if they aren't cures for the disease.

As for politicians talking about reforms, that's all well and dandy, but what specifically?

sikax wrote:

Monk wrote:As Boomer said, I don't think it's just cop killing blacks. The article goes into detail about it, but this is largely a reaction to a long term and systemic problem that's culminated into riots. And to answer your question, politicians have already been discussing the need to change the justice system (on both left and right), and I wouldn't be surprised if these riots and those in Ferguson hastened reform.

Yes yes I get that it's a symptom of a largely racist society, but that symptom is what's triggering this response right now. It could be another thing tomorrow. The point is, though, that changes can still be enacted upon this symptom even if they aren't cures for the disease.

As for politicians talking about reforms, that's all well and dandy, but what specifically?

Hillary just came out against Bill Clinton's crime bill from 1994. Rand Paul and others have discussed reforming laws against drug usage.

But there is a specific American dynamic at play with cops killing blacks here...that goes all the way back to the end of slavery...when blacks stopped being property.

When whites had more control over black people, blacks were thought of as meek and docile. It was after blacks were freed that insane propaganda about "mindless black brutes" began to flourish. It's like blacks were animals that were only docile under white control...who are a threat to whites once freed...like a lion that's escaped from a cage. A lion could be a cute pet in a cage, but you don't want to run into one in the wild. That was basically the dynamic from white's pov.

So white fear of blacks skyrocketed, which created an agenda to control, patrol and terrorize black populations(roundup, lynch, pillage, etc)...to "protect" white society. This is part of the origins of the KKK's popularity. A lot of klan members were public officials and cops. And cops today, in many ways, are just doing what the klan used to do(and some are secretly klan members). And it's typically poor/lower-class whites that do most of this "overseeing"....as it has always been.

sikax wrote:It's interesting to think of just what concrete changes could be made. The problem is the racist and trigger-happy mindset of cops, right? The fact that they're murdering black people for no reason. There aren't any laws that could be changed to stop that, but there ought to be ways to make the cop accountable. Right now the system caters to the cops' image, but ironically the fact that each and every cop has gotten away with murder has been more detrimental to the cops' image. If the government thought this through and truly wanted peace and for the image of cops to be a bit better, at least one cop should be convicted of a crime. Then people would be like, "OK, maybe there is some justice in this country after all." But that ain't happening, when it should, and people get more and more pissed, rightfully so.

But I digress. What concrete things could change to hold murderers accountable? Put a camera on his chest? That could help, but there have been cases when the shooting was filmed and the cop still got off. So, that's not 100%.

What else? Changes in the courts? I don't know. My point is there need to be tangible goals here, not just telling cops to stop being racist and stupid.

The only way I can see this happening is if there were a better representation of blacks on the law enforcement side of things. But it's going to take a major cultural shift on several fronts to getting there which I just really doubt is possible.

The only way I can see this happening is if there were a better representation of blacks on the law enforcement side of things.

That's part of it, but also government and positions of power. (And money.) You can't riot the racism out of someone, no matter what race. Social structure and function evolve to favor those in power. When those in power are more equally represented across the board, the social status will change to accommodate that. Each race will tend to favor their own, but there will be more checks and balances to that dynamic.

Cinemachinery wrote:

The only way I can see this happening is if there were a better representation of blacks on the law enforcement side of things.

That's part of it, but also government and positions of power. (And money.) You can't riot the racism out of someone, no matter what race. Social structure and function evolve to favor those in power. When those in power are more equally represented across the board, the social status will change to accommodate that. Each race will tend to favor their own, but there will be more checks and balances to that dynamic.

And considering who is in power, even those supposedly working to fix such dynamics I really can't see them at best even effectively doing so, which is why I said "But it's going to take a major cultural shift on several fronts to getting there which I just really doubt is possible."