The Pitters' Place

What's up with that?

Who and who? Should I care?

no

K.

yes

He did it again after apologizing for doing it?

yes

His first apology was more of a "I'm sorry you're offended" as opposed to an actual "I'm sorry".

Isn't this more of a Movie & Television subject?

IT'S ANARCHY, I TELL YOU!!!

No one tells me what to do!

#firstworldanarchists

Oh, his non-apology was the worst. Chris Evans actually gave a decent apology. But I didn't know Renner had done it again. I know a lot of people were like 'Oh, everyone is so easily offended these days, she's a fictional character, it's PC gone mad' but I don't know what that has to do with the price of fish. I don't think Renner would feel comfortable making lazy racist cracks about Nick Fury just because he's fictional so I don't want to hear lazy sexist cracks about Black Widow. Particularly when Scarlett Johansson keeps getting asked sexist shit during promo and Black Widow is getting seriously underserved in merchandising. Be more like Mark Ruffalo, Jeremy Renner.

Yeah he's a douche.

eh, looked it up. Bad but forgivable original comment (people make all kinds of ill-thought-out jokes when they're exhausted with interviews), bad apology, and "but it's just a fictional character!" is horrible justification. Chris Evan's apology was awesome though.

But I didn't know Renner had done it again.

Not really; his exact words for that part: "But, Conan, if you slept with four of the six Avengers, no matter how much fun you had, you'd be a slut. I'd be a slut."

Which I actually thought was pretty good, because it clarified his definition of 'slut' as one that challenges the stupid sexual double standard for men and women that's the whole problem to begin with - where women who sleep with lots of men are condemned, but men who sleep with lots of women are praised, which is infuriating and stupid. So I at least appreciate his consistency there. Whereas if he believed that a man who did the same was not a slut, because misogynist reason, I'd have reason to find it offensive.

I don't get people who simultaneously claim that:
1) there is nothing wrong about being a slut
2) it is bad to call someone a slut, implying that there is something wrong about being a slut

Effectively, all Renner is saying is: "Someone, man or woman, who sleeps around a lot is a slut." He's giving a definition that actively attacks the misogynist double standard, and I love that.

I find Renner's "but it's fiction!!" justification to be a lot more questionable here.

And yet, the only Avenger he is calling a slut is... the only female Avenger. He's not implying that Iron Man is a cheap, dirty whore even though Iron Man is canonically promiscuous before he settles down with Pepper. Saying 'Oh, I'd call a guy a slut too' is irrelevant if you're not, y'know, actually calling guys sluts too. Isn't he still engaging in a misogynistic double standard?

Also, is there not a problem with calling someone a slut in general, it's not his business to judge a person/character's sexual history. If someone is fine with it and would call themselves a slut it's different, but people shouldn't be going round calling others sluts because they like sleeping around.

@aels: good point, although it's hard to say for sure here, because his initial comment was a direct reply to a leading question about Black Widow flirting with everybody. It's possible he might have said the same thing about Iron Man if he'd been asked. (My mother criticises fictional men on a regular basis while watching their on screen sexual exploits.) Also, he never said it was a bad thing; the 'whore' comment was from Chris Evans.

Though I realise that his initial comment was in response to mere flirting, not actual sex, which makes it worse that she couldn't even express attraction without being called a slut.

I'm a man whore.

That is all...

But yeah...the whole "well, I'd call a man a slut too!" is an incredibly weak(and common) excuse.

James Bond is a slut.

I'm a man whore.

Why the need to specify 'man'? No one calls women 'women whores'.

"While 48 percent of students judged men and women's sexual exploits equally, 12 percent held a double standard, judging women more harshly than men. Another 13 percent held a backward double standard, judging men more harshly than women. Finally, 27 percent said they didn't judge people for hooking up at all, no matter how frequently."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/even-guys-g ... asual-sex/

Admittedly, surveys are often less than honest.

James Bond is a slut.

He is. My mother used to talk about how gross that was, and that that's how people get AIDS and it would serve him right if he did. She didn't even mean it ironically or anything. She's done the same with Barney Stinson and a whole number of other fictional men, but never with women. I also judge men more harshly than women when it comes to sexual promiscuity, so I don't think that anyone who claims to do so (or do so equally) is necessarily just making excuses.

Also - it was a leading question. The interviewer asked what he thought about Black Widow hooking up with all the guys, and Renner responded with "She's a slut". That's it, three words that were effectively a rewording of the question (why isn't anyone criticizing the interviewer who thought it even relevant to bring up Black Widow's sexual history, when they presumably didn't do that with the men?) Later he also explained that he thinks anyone who sleeps with that many people - including himself - would be a slut. Perhaps he also proudly calls himself a man whore. We don't know.

His prior non-apology and fictional-justification were offensive, no question there, as is his assumption that Widow was sleeping with all those people just because she expressed interest in them. But it feels like a stretch when people say that his initial comment was reducing her to her sexual behaviour or thought that the only important thing about her character, when he wasn't even the person who brought it up to begin with. From brief googling he's said lots of positive things about Widow, and brought up on his own volition how Avengers needed more strong female roles like her because it was "chock full of dudes". He obviously doesn't think of her (or women) functioning solely as a universal sexual/love interest for the men, as people have claimed.

disclaimer: not a Renner fan, just think some of the criticism was unsubstantiated. I like Chris Evans but found his comment worse, because 'complete whore' has more derogatory connotations than 'slut' and is way less excusable. But he gave a decent apology, so kudos to him for that.

aels wrote:And yet, the only Avenger he is calling a slut is... the only female Avenger. He's not implying that Iron Man is a cheap, dirty whore even though Iron Man is canonically promiscuous before he settles down with Pepper. Saying 'Oh, I'd call a guy a slut too' is irrelevant if you're not, y'know, actually calling guys sluts too. Isn't he still engaging in a misogynistic double standard?

Someone tried to make the argument on the Avengers AoU IMDb board that Renner isn't being sexism because he said men & women can be sluts. So of course asked why he hadn't called Stark a slut.

Calling a man a slut or saying that you would call a man a slut in no way makes it better. It's pretty much like calling a black person the n-word, and then also calling a white person the n-word. "Slut" is a term that has been used to denigrate women specifically, so using it denigrates women. Even if you are using it in regards to a man.

Gendo wrote:Calling a man a slut or saying that you would call a man a slut in no way makes it better. It's pretty much like calling a black person the n-word, and then also calling a white person the n-word. "Slut" is a term that has been used to denigrate women specifically, so using it denigrates women. Even if you are using it in regards to a man.

OK. But that wasn't really my point. My point was just showing that Renner was still using a double standard and being a hypocrite even if he was trying to say he wasn't.

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:

Gendo wrote:Calling a man a slut or saying that you would call a man a slut in no way makes it better. It's pretty much like calling a black person the n-word, and then also calling a white person the n-word. "Slut" is a term that has been used to denigrate women specifically, so using it denigrates women. Even if you are using it in regards to a man.

OK. But that wasn't really my point. My point was just showing that Renner was still using a double standard and being a hypocrite even if he was trying to say he wasn't.

I wasn't really responding to your post; just responding to the lame argument used by Renner and some others.

So of course asked why he hadn't called Stark a slut.

Because he wasn't asked, which is what people are missing: he was specifically asked about his opinion of Widow flirting with everybody. The question itself was already loaded. He wasn't asked about Stark's sexual behaviour, and we can only speculate how he would have responded to that. He might very well have also called him a slut. It wouldn't have had the same derogatory weight, but it wouldn't have been a double standard - or at least would be the closest one can get to avoiding it, since there's no equivalent insult for men.

The correct answer to that question would have been "Why aren't we talking about Stark's sexual behaviour? Why only Black Widow's??" Or something like that.

So this guy plays the most obvious copycat character among a cast of copycat characters and he's insulting another copycat character. Interesting.

Huh, I didn't think of that one. I treat questions more linearly, so if it had been me I would have hopefully said something about the problem of movies having a sole female protagonist who ends up being everyone's love interest, and we need better storylines and female roles. But if I'd been tired, I doubt I'd have managed that much and might have just said something stupid. So I can sort of forgive him for that, but believe he should have just given a better apology that was actually an apology.

This is good: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-l ... 7339361198

Though I'm still frustrated at what seems to be a false equivalency here, where slut-shaming - shaming a woman for having sex with many people - is a completely different thing from calling a woman a slut just for expressing interest in men or being female. The latter is unjustifiable in any circumstance, and also seems utterly counterproductive for any straight man who presumably doesn't want to shame women away from sleeping with him. I will never understand that.

Whereas I consider the former only unjustifiable in the case of a double standard for men and women (which also makes no sense; who are the straight men supposed to sleep with, if women aren't permitted to?). Otherwise, it's very culturally-dependent, even sub-culturally (e.g. conservative Christian communities like where I grew up), where both men and women are held to strict standards of sexual behaviour. My mother works at an all-boys Christian school, and they're extremely strict about them not having sex until marriage. All the regular motivators are thrown in: no girl will want them or respect them, it's not what gentlemen do, dicks that have been everywhere are gross and probably diseased, God will be disappointed and angry, etc. There is no casual "boys will be boys" attitude about that at all. The misogyny comes instead from the belief that they have a responsibility to control themselves and keep sex to marriage because girls need to be protected from male sexuality (too many guys get girls pregnant and then ditch them), and it is wrong to exploit a girl's love by requiring sex as part of the relationship.

Personally, I still think "4 or 5" is a lot of people for anyone of any gender to sleep with, but I'm a product of that culture. and the main reason I'm hesitant to criticise Renner on that point is that he might have also come from a similar upbringing - where men are similarly held to strict sexual standards, and honestly believe that men who sleep around a lot are just as worthy of condemnation. Whereas a lot of the criticism has been based on assumptions otherwise, including assumptions that he's slept with that many people or more, because their own experiences (or that of the larger culture) have been different.