Westworld Season 2: Looks Like We "Lost" The Ability to Stay On Topic!!!!

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 6:07 am

Thoughts on how this has been going so far? I wasn't super enthralled by the first season and the second season has been mixed in quality IMO, though I enjoyed episode 4.

The opening of ep 4 in particular felt straight out of Lost to me.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 14, 2018 11:03 am

Stopped watching after the dull premiere. The monologues were all awful. The reveal in the end didn't do much for me. I don't think I can/will continue watching...

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 2:43 pm

maz89 wrote:Stopped watching after the dull premiere. The monologues were all awful. The reveal in the end didn't do much for me. I don't think I can/will continue watching...

I'm a little surprised since between the two of us at least I remember you being the more positive on season 1.

I wasn't especially into the dialogue of the premiere either, but it didn't seem especially different from the season 1 dialogue to me.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:29 pm

I know! Weird, right? I can't remember anything about the premiere that really worked for me. It was all slow-paced table setting for a pay-off in some future episode that I couldn't be bothered about. The world expanding was all paint by the numbers, and the new characters almost felt unnecessary. Heck, the old characters became annoying. Dolores used to be a favorite character of mine in S1 but now she doesn't shut up about how self-aware she is. Her monologue might have gone on for half an hour (if IMDB still existed, I'd have made this hyperbolic statement the title of my thread).

I did like S1 overall (even the trademark Nolan timing trickery) but it had a lot of issues - mainly reliance on twists that seemed exciting until you realized they undermined everything you'd known about the character/s. The flaws just became more apparent here. Especially with all those dense monologues that left little to the imagination.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon May 14, 2018 5:37 pm

What was the water supposed to symbolize in this last episode? There was obviously some reason they kept focusing on the water dripping and spilling over/off things, but I suck at symbolism.

As a side note, I have no idea what Maz is talking about. Westworld is great.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 7:20 pm

maz89 wrote:I know! Weird, right? I can't remember anything about the premiere that really worked for me. It was all slow-paced table setting for a pay-off in some future episode that I couldn't be bothered about. The world expanding was all paint by the numbers, and the new characters almost felt unnecessary. Heck, the old characters became annoying. Dolores used to be a favorite character of mine in S1 but now she doesn't shut up about how self-aware she is. Her monologue might have gone on for half an hour (if IMDB still existed, I'd have made this hyperbolic statement the title of my thread).

FWIW later episodes are introducing the idea that even "woke" hosts trying to use flowery language but just sounding forced are still, to some extent, possibly running on a narrative still. Perhaps Dolores sounds stilted to emphasize her artificiality but we can't really say, if at all, until the season is done which is frustrating.

I agree that Dolores isn't quite so interesting anymore even with that in mind. I kind of feel like she's just become Daenerys 2.0.

I did like S1 overall (even the trademark Nolan timing trickery) but it had a lot of issues - mainly reliance on twists that seemed exciting until you realized they undermined everything you'd known about the character/s. The flaws just became more apparent here. Especially with all those dense monologues that left little to the imagination.

Yeah I wasn't super into the characters of season 1 but you at least had some good actors helping prop up some underwritten parts. I feel like season 2 really has lost a lot from the departure of Anthony Hopkins in that sense- he just added so much.

Agreed on the Nolan time trickery not always feeling interesting, though I think episodes 2-4 have had some decent usages of it. It still does feel mechanical though, and not as lyrical or dreamlike as I prefer from someone like David Lynch or Satoshi Kon.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 pm

BruceSmith78 wrote:What was the water supposed to symbolize in this last episode? There was obviously some reason they kept focusing on the water dripping and spilling over/off things, but I suck at symbolism.

Do you remember where in the episode this water dripping was that you're talking about? I can't immediately recall off the top of my head.

I will say though that there have been a lot of references to water this season- Bernard seeming to have drowned everyone, Delos's goldfish in a bowl (Obviously an joke about Delos himself having a bad memory in his new form and being trapped by William), human/host hybrid Delos saying “They said there were two Fathers. One above, one below. They lied. There was only ever the devil. When you looked up from the water, there was just his reflection, laughing back down at you." right before he dies etc.

So we've got water as death (Drowning), water as trap (Bowl), water as self-reflection and realizing something negative (About yourself?). Whatever they're trying to say with water, (Perhaps how journeys of self reflection can somehow be negative? I.e., is it that the hosts only end up drowned because they remembered their "past lives" and staged a rebellion?), it does not seem to be a happy message.

As a side note, I have no idea what Maz is talking about. Westworld is great.

I like the show but I also do agree with maz that it is flawed. For all of the intricate plotting I still don't think there's a lot to any of these characters so far. They all do feel a bit cold, and perhaps they shouldn't when the premise is that people come to Westworld to act out their worst passions and impulses.

Post by **Gendo** » Mon May 14, 2018 7:59 pm

Never seen the show (or the movie), but I always loved that Lost season opening. Maybe second to the season 3 opening.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:33 pm

Raxivace wrote:FWIW later episodes are introducing the idea that even "woke" hosts trying to use flowery language but just sounding forced are still, to some extent, possibly running on a narrative still. Perhaps Dolores sounds stilted to emphasize her artificiality but we can't really say, if at all, until the season is done which is frustrating.

That could excuse the emo dialogue to some extent... but like you said, that doesn't make sitting through it any easier. I guess I wouldn't mind reading about how things turn out after the season is over...

Raxivace wrote:I agree that Dolores isn't quite so interesting anymore even with that in mind. I kind of feel like she's just become Daenerys 2.0.

This is actually an insightful remark.

Raxivace wrote:Yeah I wasn't super into the characters of season 1 but you at least had some good actors helping prop up some underwritten parts. I feel like season 2 really has lost a lot from the departure of Anthony Hopkins in that sense- he just added so much.

Agreed. He had a mysterious presence that really went well with the show's tone.

Raxivace wrote:Agreed on the Nolan time trickery not always feeling interesting, though I think episodes 2-4 have had some decent usages of it. It still does feel mechanical though, and not as lyrical or dreamlike as I prefer from someone like David Lynch or Satoshi Kon.

Are you saying there's a timing puzzle in episodes 2-4 of season 2 as well? Or are you referring to previous season? Because I didn't know J Nolan was writing for this season and that's his shtick.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:33 pm

Gendo wrote:Never seen the show (or the movie), but I always loved that Lost season opening. Maybe second to the season 3 opening.

I think we should turn this thread into a discussion about Lost instead.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 pm

maz89 wrote:Are you saying there's a timing puzzle in episodes 2-4 of season 2 as well? Or are you referring to previous season? Because I didn't know J Nolan was writing for this season and that's his shtick.

I mean this season does. The gimmick seems to be Bernard not being able to discern between the present timeline and his memories, to point where episode 4 has a scene where he has a flashback, only to realize having that flashback was itself a memory. Its like one of those Russian nesting dolls.

And yeah Jonathan Nolan is still on season 2, with writing credits etc. I want to stress though that the other showrunner, Lisa Joy, is still pretty involved too and even directed episode 4.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:56 pm

maz89 wrote:
Gendo wrote:Never seen the show (or the movie), but I always loved that Lost season opening. Maybe second to the season 3 opening.
I think we should turn this thread into a discussion about Lost instead.

I think its kind of hard not to compare Westworld to Lost. I remember we thought season 1 felt like Lost.

I wasn't only one to think the S2E4 was like the opening of S2E1 of Lost either it seems, though Lisa Joy denies ever having seen Lost. I'm not sure I believe that but oh well.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:59 pm

Gendo wrote:Never seen the show (or the movie), but I always loved that Lost season opening. Maybe second to the season 3 opening.

Yeah its mad good. The season 2 opener reminds me of the season 5 one as well.

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Mon May 14, 2018 9:32 pm

I was thinking more of when they were in the rain in Lawrence's home town. Lots of talk about death and they kept lingering on shots of water trickling off things - one that really stood out was the rain running off the brim of William's hat after he killed everyone. There was also the shot of the water flowing over the bathtub when William's wife killed herself, and the blood mixing in that liquid in the lab when Bernard was killing the lab technicians or whatever they were. Oh yeah, and when the old man/robot was pouring his creamer, he just kept pouring and they focused on the flow of the cream and the spillover, much like the shot of the water spilling off William's hat. It really felt like it was all intentional, I just didn't understand why they did it.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Mon May 21, 2018 6:38 am

The Shogun World stuff was pretty fun this week- I liked the thinly veiled joke about how westerns and samurai films have been ripping each other off since like forever ago.

Post by **Gendo** » Tue May 22, 2018 3:10 pm

Darn you, now I've been watching various Lost clips all week, and find myself tempted to just go ahead and re-watch the whole thing. I have to keep reminding myself that I have so much stuff I haven't seen yet to watch.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue May 22, 2018 6:14 pm

I want to rewatch Lost at some point, but its so damn long and that final season is so bad and has some pretty gross views it expresses.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue May 22, 2018 6:24 pm

I thought the final season presented a very safe pro-multiculturalism view (on top of the usual optimistic themes about redemption).

What did I miss?

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue May 22, 2018 6:28 pm

maz89 wrote:I thought the final season presented a very safe pro-multiculturalism view. What did I miss?

The theme of the final season is that critical thinking is literally evil, wanting to escape from people that have wrongfully enslaved and imprisoned you is literally evil, and that cool and good people put blind faith into authoritarian dictators, murder for them, and get rewarded for it.

It's fucked up.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue May 22, 2018 6:32 pm

Like the only way to redeem Season 6 is by reading it as satire where you're supposed to understand that Jacob, Jack, Hurley, Kate etc. are the real villains justifying their awfulness with bullshit aphorisms about the fate of the world and that MiB is the only moral character left on the Island.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed May 23, 2018 6:12 pm

That is the strangest reading of Lost's final season that I've ever seen.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed May 23, 2018 7:06 pm

maz89 wrote: That is the strangest reading of Lost's final season that I've ever seen.

Yeah one of these days we have to really dig into Lost. Everything I posted there is based on something in the show (In my reading of it at least), though its hard to just pick any one thing in Lost and not end up having to talk about a million other things. That's kind of an issue with these big intricate narratives.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed May 23, 2018 11:04 pm

Lost turned bad before the first season ended.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed May 23, 2018 11:54 pm

Nah season 1 is fine. It spins its wheels a bit much in comparison to modern cable shows, but its a network show and a network show from nearly 15 years ago at that.

Post by **Gendo** » Tue May 29, 2018 3:21 pm

I hope you're happy. After finding myself watching nothing but Lost clips on YouTube, I've now just started watching the whole series again. Got through the first 8 episodes last night. When I wind up having seen fewer movies this year than I wanted to, I blame you.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Tue May 29, 2018 6:16 pm

It was all a part of my long con to ensure I win the prestigious Pitter's Award For Most Movies Seen 2018.

Like a moth to the flame, you played right into my hand Gendo.

Post by **Gendo** » Tue May 29, 2018 6:52 pm

Raxivace wrote:It was all a part of my long con to ensure I win the prestigious Pitter's Award For Most Movies Seen 2018.

Like a moth to the flame, you played right into my hand Gendo.

I'm quite sure reaching 100 before the year was half over would have been enough!

My goal is 100; I'm ahead of schedule, at least.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu May 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Well I managed to finish season 1 in just 3 days. Won't be able to keep up that pace, though.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu May 31, 2018 3:00 pm

Gendo wrote:Well I managed to finish season 1 in just 3 days. Won't be able to keep up that pace, though.

Yeah that's pretty quick. I can't imagine even speeding through the shorter seasons quite that fast.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu May 31, 2018 3:15 pm

Wife was out of town, so I just spent every minute between work and sleep watching 8-10 episodes each day.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:26 pm

I really wish those Lost seasons were a bit shorter. Would have made that marathon a possibility. :(

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:22 am

maz89 wrote:I really wish those Lost seasons were a bit shorter. Would have made that marathon a possibility. :(

I agree, though its kind of funny because the show was pitched to ABC as literally the exact opposite kind of series.

J.J. Abrams & Damon Lindelof, May 5th 2004 wrote:THE BIG QUESTION - IS IT SELF-CONTAINED OR SERIALIZED?

Self-contained.

Seriously.

We promise.

Yes - the mysteries surrounding the island may serve an ongoing (and easy to follow) mythology but every episode has a beginning, middle and end. More importantly, the beginning of the next episode presents an entirely new dilemna to be resolved that requires NO knowledge of the episode( s) that preceded it (except for the rare two-parter).

Yes - character arcs (romances, alliances, grudges) carry over the scope of a season, but the plots will not. Viewers will be able to drop in at any time and be able to follow exactly what's going on in a story context.

This is not lip service - we are absolutely committed to this conceit. LOST can and will be just as accessible on a weekly basis as a traditiona1ly "procedural" drama.

I have a PDF copy of the pitch that got leaked onto the internet a few years ago, and its got a lot of hilarious-in-retrospect shit like this in there. Here's another favorite bit of mine from that.

J.J. Abrams & Damon Lindelof, May 5th 2004 wrote:IS LOST A GENRE SHOW?

We'd prefer to brand it as an "Adventure Show."

Our mandate is to give LOST the same treatment as a Michael Crichton novel. Every time we . introduce an element of the fantastic, we approach it from a real place. If we do it right, the "paranormal" will always be coupled with a logical explanation to remind the audience that this is the real world.

The moment our characters stop being amazed by amazing things, the show becomes inaccessible . to a broader audience. As "Close Encounters" treated alien visitation in a real· and grounded way (real-life characters in a constant state of wonder as to what was happening around them), we hope to have the same respect for the seemingly supernatural on "Lost." .

More importantly, there will be entire episodes that are grounded entirely in reality and have no . elements of the fantastic ·whatsoever. The island itself is a strange and mysterious place, but it also poses the same threats as any normal island. Not to mention the almost limitless permutations of character conflict that can drive an episode over a single issue (i.e. electing a leader).

If we do our jobs right, we can walk that fine line and never be branded as "Sci-Fi."

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:20 am

OMG. LOL. SO MANY LIES.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:33 am

maz89 wrote:OMG. LOL. SO MANY LIES.

For the sake of fairness I should probably post Lindelof's response to the leak.

But yeah its pretty funny.

maz89 · Post by **maz89** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:57 am

^Well I figured as much - that they lied to get it picked up by the network in the first place. ;)

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:31 pm

Finished season 2 now; only 8 days for both combined. At this rate, I will have only wasted about a month of my life watching this instead of new stuff.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:59 pm

Gendo wrote:Finished season 2 now; only 8 days for both combined. At this rate, I will have only wasted about a month of my life watching this instead of new stuff.

The whole debate about the validity of pushing the button is one of my favorite parts of the show. All the DHARMA relics in general made for good set pieces- gotta love those orientation films too.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:01 am

The best scene in Lost is when they show the clip of the 2004 Red Sox winning the World Series. Because Go Sox.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:29 am

Gendo wrote:The best scene in Lost is when they show the clip of the 2004 Red Sox winning the World Series. Because Go Sox.

I thought that was funny because I don't believe for a damn second Ben Linus actually follows baseball at all, but that he instead totally learned all of that just to troll Jack.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 pm

lol Bruce, well played, sir.

Hey, your warning has finally expired!

BruceSmith78 · Post by **BruceSmith78** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:54 am

Post by **Gendo** » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:00 pm

DONE.

Finished the whole show in 4 weeks and 2 days. I'd forgotten that the last 3 seasons were all pretty short; not only season 4.

Finally I can watch movies again!

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:04 am

What did you think of the show the second time through?

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:05 am

On an unrelated and off-topic note, I liked the Westworld Season 2 finale though apparently a lot of nerds online hated it. So it goes.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:39 am

4th time through, actually!

Still love it. Yeah, there's definitely some stuff where it wanted to seem like it was trying to say more than it really was. I don't get why everyone hated the end so much. The quality of the first couple seasons was certainly stronger, but for me the entertainment value was pretty consistent throughout.

I found that I forget various things that happen; so still get some surprise when twists are revealed.

Raxivace · Post by **Raxivace** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:33 pm

People hated the end because they expected "answers", though I suspect that was more of a scapegoat for larger thematic dislikes about where the show went since most of the "unanswered questions" people have with the show do in fact have answers (Whether or not they're satisfying or whatever is another story, but not an actual critique of the series I hear often).

My biggest problem with the ending is more an issue with Season 6 as a whole, and its that if you take it at face value Season 6 argues that critical thinking is bad, blind faith is good, and also slavery is awesome because the slaves might try and kill their masters if we keep them around for too long. I think all three of those are abhorrent messages, and that Season 6 is only redeemable if read as satire where Jacob, Jack, Hurley etc. are understood as the actual villains and MiB is the tragic hero.

It is, at the very least, way more gray than the "Two sides, one is light the other is dark" dichotomy that the show tries to paint it as.

Post by **Gendo** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:45 pm

I feel like at least Beyond the Sea portrays MiB as a sympathetic figure; if not quite tragic hero. And Season 6 does seem to show that at least Jacob is flawed; as opposed to a perfect leader.

But yes, blind faith is a pretty important theme throughout.