Marriage and taking the other's name

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

A friend of mine is getting married and his fiancée wants him to give her a good reason why he shouldn't take her name rather than her taking his name. And other than resorting to "it's traditional" (which seems really lame considering how non-traditional their lives are) neither he nor I can think of one.

But the truth is that he doesn't want to take her name and he also doesn't want to lose the debate. (It's a point of principle thing now). He suggested that they keep their own names, but she thinks they should both have the same name. I suggested they hyphenate or pick a completely different name, but that didn't go down well either.

Anyway - I thought it was an interesting point of debate. Are there any arguments for or against either the man or the woman taking the other's name? Is it more logical for one partner to do so than the other?

[aels]

The only logic for taking another person's name after marriage is if you want to have the same name or you want your children to have the same name as both of you. There is zero reason, other than tradition and/or the weight of social expectation, for a woman to take her husband's name rather than him taking hers or them hyphenating or picking a new name or whatever.

I don't imagine I would take my husband's name when I got married, unless I completely fell in love with the name or thought it was better than my own. My reasoning isn't even for my usual feminist killjoy reasons (although fuck all that patriarchal noise), it's just that my name... my name. It's always been my name. I am incredibly used to it being my name. I like that it is the same surname as my father and my sister's. And any dude who expects his wife to automatically take his name, or isn't prepared to consider taking hers in the same that he expects her to consider taking his, needs to be looked at with a stern and scowly face.

EDIT: To clarify, I have zero problems with a dude saying 'Hey, I want us to have the same last name, would you consider changing your surname?' but he needs to totally respect that she might not want to and he needs to be seriously prepared to consider the possibility of changing his name if it's such a big deal to him.

[phe_de]

The best reason is the name itself.
How good do the names sound? How good do they sound in combination with the forenames?

And no, there is no rational reason why it should be the woman taking the man's name rather than vice versa.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

I don't imagine I would take my husband's name when I got married, unless I completely fell in love with the name or thought it was better than my own. My reasoning isn't even for my usual feminist killjoy reasons (although fuck all that patriarchal noise), it's just that my name... my name. It's always been my name. I am incredibly used to it being my name. I like that it is the same surname as my father and my sister's. And any dude who expects his wife to automatically take his name, or isn't prepared to consider taking hers in the same that he expects her to consider taking his, needs to be looked at with a stern and scowly face.

I'll put you down as an "undecided" then...

Personally, I have no issue with people keeping their own names. Both people changing them to something new just seems like a lot of unnecessary aggravation, so if you do decide that you want to have the same name then pick one of the existing names and go with it.

I suppose as an ancillary point where do you stand on titles? Miss/Ms/Mrs? Playing devil's advocate - if you are willing to change your title to conform with tradition then why not change your name to go with it?

[aels]

Personally, I have no issue with people keeping their own names. Both people changing them to something new just seems like a lot of unnecessary aggravation, so if you do decide that you want to have the same name then pick one of the existing names and go with it.

Well, that's another reason why I wouldn't want to change my name. What a faff.

I suppose as an ancillary point where do you stand on titles? Miss/Ms/Mrs? Playing devil's advocate - if you are willing to change your title to conform with tradition then why not change your name to go with it?

I currently go by Miss because I am refusing to grow up but I'll probably switch to Ms soon enough because I am a feminist killjoy and I do agree with the argument that it's kinda sketchy that women's honorifics denote marital status while men's don't. To be honest, I would consider going by Mrs, although I'm ambivalent on it. The Miss/Ms part of my name isn't tied to my identity in the way that my surname is but... feminist killjoy. IDK.

[Islandmur]

There has to be a name if only for children sake because the hyphen thing only works for so many generations.

[Gendo]

There has to be a name if only for children sake because the hyphen thing only works for so many generations.

Hah, good point! If the hyphen thing became the standard, then you'd have to deal with 2 people with hyphenated names marrying each other, and so on until people had ridiculously long names.

[Anakin McFly]

One issue might be regarding family history - being able to trace one's family tree via a name, which is less messy if the name was passed down exclusively through the male or female line. i.e. "this is the history of the X family" doesn't bring that same sense of belonging if one's family name is not X. Though of course then there's the issue of why it should be the father's family they're considered to belong to. But I know that in Judaism, Jewishness is passed down on the mother's side, and in that situation it would make much more sense to me for the children and husband to take their woman's name.

[phe_de]

There has to be a name if only for children sake because the hyphen thing only works for so many generations.

Hah, good point! If the hyphen thing became the standard, then you'd have to deal with 2 people with hyphenated names marrying each other, and so on until people had ridiculously long names.

That's not possible in Germany.
The spouses can hyphenate their names; but the couple has to pick one of the two names for the children. No hyphenated names for the offspring.
I don't know how it is in the USA.

[Whitey]

There's no reason a woman should change her name instead of a man.

Generally, the couple should pick which name they like, or they should hyphenate I think. One thing I don't like is when couples don't have the same surname.

One other reason that could be a factor, if one partner has a business or something and their name is pretty well known, it might not make sense to change their name, if the other isn't in the same situation. For example, if Liszt sets up a successful dental practice and expands it to the point where her surname is recognisable, and I don't have that situation, it might make more sense for me to change my name. Especially as mine is fairly generic. For celebrities where their name is part of their brand, it probably won't make sense to change it either.

[BruceSmith78]

Wait, did Whitey just propose to Liszt?

[Ptolemy_Banana]

A friend of mine is getting married and his fiancée wants him to give her a good reason why he shouldn't take her name rather than her taking his name. And other than resorting to "it's traditional" (which seems really lame considering how non-traditional their lives are) neither he nor I can think of one.

But the truth is that he doesn't want to take her name and he also doesn't want to lose the debate. (It's a point of principle thing now). He suggested that they keep their own names, but she thinks they should both have the same name. I suggested they hyphenate or pick a completely different name, but that didn't go down well either.

He should tell her that his good reason for her taking his name rather than him taking hers is that he's stronger than her. If she can prove otherwise, he takes her name. Feats of strength, now that's tradition.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

There has to be a name if only for children sake because the hyphen thing only works for so many generations.

Hah, good point! If the hyphen thing became the standard, then you'd have to deal with 2 people with hyphenated names marrying each other, and so on until people had ridiculously long names.

In Spain people usually have two surnames, the first being patrilineal, the second matrilineal. Their children will then usually take the first surname from each.

[Whitey]

Wait, did Whitey just propose to Liszt?

Nah. I'm just using us as an example as a couple. As if we do last, the name thing will come up.

[Ptolemy_Banana]

Wait, did Whitey just propose to Liszt?

Nah. I'm just using us as an example as a couple. As if we do last, the name thing will come up.

Taking her name would be a good way of really confusing people round your area.

[OpiateOfTheMasses]

Okay... so what I'm getting from all this is that there's no particular reason that it should be either party (which I instinctively agree with), but some feel that it does kind of make sense for them to both take the same name (whatever that may be)...

So the cold, logical pragmatist in me would argue that whomever would find it easiest to change their name should change their name. If (for example) the wife was going to change her title from Miss to Mrs then she's going to need to change a whole bunch of her identification and billings anyway, so getting her name done at the same time is no extra hassle.

Or if the wife had a job that used her maiden name prominently, but the husband didn't then it would make more sense for the husband to change his name.

That sort of thing.

[Boomer]

In a vacuum there's no logical reason for a change in name one way or the other.

However, in real-world, practical terms, I think it's better for the woman to take the name of the man. The fact of the matter is we live in a patriarchal society and there's a social stigma surrounding men hyphenating their names or fully adopting their wive's last names; it's seen as emasculating. I'm sure we all know dude-bros who would laugh/scoff at the idea, and there are numerous scenarios where this ingrained stigma could result in a negative. Lost job opportunities, kids getting made fun of at school, etc.

This may not apply to your friends as you've said they live non-traditional lives, but in general I feel it's a valid, if not a wholly popular/sympathetic, point.

[Whitey]

I'm not necessarily sure that protecting the feelings of the patriarchy is a good enough reason nowadays.

[BruceSmith78]

Wait, did Whitey just propose to Liszt?

Nah. I'm just using us as an example as a couple. As if we do last, the name thing will come up.

I knew this. I was trying to be funny, but evidently I failed.

[aels]

I'm not necessarily sure that protecting the feelings of the patriarchy is a good enough reason nowadays.

I'm so proud of you, my son.

[Dr_Liszt]

Wait, did Whitey just propose to Liszt?

Nah. I'm just using us as an example as a couple. As if we do last, the name thing will come up.

I knew this. I was trying to be funny, but evidently I failed.

I did laugh. I thought it was awesome.

The joke, I mean. Don't get any ideas.

[Whitey]

I'm not necessarily sure that protecting the feelings of the patriarchy is a good enough reason nowadays.

I'm so proud of you, my son.

I did laugh. I thought it was awesome.

Misquoting for you reasons.

[Boomer]

I'm not necessarily sure that protecting the feelings of the patriarchy is a good enough reason nowadays.

I'm not saying it's right or just, I'm being realistic.

[Whitey]

The point is that the stigma will not change until people start making it change. Saying we should keep the status quo because it'll stop problems in the short term isn't the way to go about it. If people make the effort to change now, there will be less stigma later.

[Boomer]

I realize that and completely agree, but the op was asking for reasons one way or the other and I was simply giving a realistic one.

If his friends want to deal with the stigma and bullshit connected to a man taking his wife's name then God bless them, but pretending that stigma doesn't exist is not exactly doing them any favors.

[Dr_Liszt]

I realize that and completely agree, but the op was asking for reasons one way or the other and I was simply giving a realistic one.

If his friends want to deal with the stigma and bullshit connected to a man taking his wife's name then God bless them, but pretending that stigma doesn't exist is not exactly doing them any favors.

If you have an european maternal surname, people will take that surname and use that one instead of your paternal. Because that's how much we suck.

And kids even do it, they identify with that one instead of whatever spanish name they'll have. I see this a lot among the German community. And there's not much bullshit around it. I'm pretty sure people don't care that much.

[sikax]

I like my last name. If I ever married anyone, I wouldn't expect her to change her name to mine; she can just keep hers or hyphenate or whatever, but I ain't changing my name. Shit.

[Dr_Liszt]

I like my last name. If I ever married anyone, I wouldn't expect her to change her name to mine; she can just keep hers or hyphenate or whatever, but I ain't changing my name. Shit.

That's how I feel about my last name too. I like it too much to drop it.

[sikax]

In the same vein as all this, I suppose, the last name a kid gets is interesting. My parents were together but unmarried when they had their three kids. We all took my father's last name. I don't know if they discussed it beforehand or if it was just assumed. My son took my name as opposed to his mother's mainly because it was clear which one of us would be raising him (me). A lot of hippy/progressives give their kids hyphenated last names. That's weird.

[Whitey]

I like my last name. If I ever married anyone, I wouldn't expect her to change her name to mine; she can just keep hers or hyphenate or whatever, but I ain't changing my name. Shit.

That's how I feel about my last name too. I like it too much to drop it.

It is a good name. Nicer than mine.

[Gendo]

The simple solution here is to limit your potential spouses to those who happen to have the same last name (not actual family members).

[Whitey]

My last name is pretty generic. I don't wanna.

[Dr_Liszt]

The simple solution here is to limit your potential spouses to those who happen to have the same last name (not actual family members).

What about those of us where the only people that have our same last name, are family members?

[aels]

That's when it has to be actual family members.

[Whitey]

The simple solution here is to limit your potential spouses to those who happen to have the same last name (not actual family members).

What about those of us where the only people that have our same last name, are family members?

Hey, at least with your naming culture you get twice as much choice. You can marry cousins on both sides of the family!

[Anakin McFly]

true story - I had a teacher whose given name (Chinese) was Ai Kiew, and she married a Mr. Low. Given the Chinese naming convention of having the family name precede the given name, this made her Mrs. Low Ai Kiew.