angry about rioting

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:18 am

not because I don't understand, but because I do. I get the anger. I feel it all the time, especially in the past few weeks because stuff happening has unleashed another wave of intense homophobia all over the country and I hate everything because everything is unfair and people are saying scary, stupid, wrong, violent things and I want to grab random people and scream at them and beat them up and destroy all the things.

but that won't solve anything. It'll just make it worse, hurt people who have never directly caused me harm, involve unnecessary collateral damage, and I'll end up getting caned, thrown in jail and be destroyed by the media and be even less useful to anybody, and if it's not just me but a whole bunch of people, it'll probably set lgbt rights back another decade and then we'd have to start from there all over again. so I take out my anger on video games and abusing people who send me spam. because that way no actual person gets hurt. there's too much hurt in the world as it is.

I'm just really angry right now. especially at the assumption that anyone against rioting is a bigot who wants oppression to continue. but it's because I don't want oppression to continue that I'm against rioting. there's civil disobedience and protesting as an alternative. things that won't hurt even more people, without any assurance that it'll stop others getting hurt. first do no harm. take no action that won't have its pros outweigh the cons.

The people on your side are already on your side. the people not on your side will just be even more bigoted in response. I haven't seen a single racist respond to the US riots with "Oh, I guess I was wrong, then, and black people should be treated decently."

(although maybe it's a cultural thing. maybe stuff works in the US that will just be a horrible idea here, where even strikes are illegal.)

there's this poster promoting a prominent anti-gay activist (he's been called the Fred Phelps of Singapore) that I pass every day on the way to work. I've been sorely tempted to tear it down or vandalise it, but there are cameras everywhere, and me getting caned and/or jailed for damage to personal property won't solve a single fucking thing and just make my life harder with a criminal record and possible permanent physical injury.

(not at all defending the white people who on one hand condemn the current riots but who don't bring the same condemnation against white people rioting and hurting people over lost football matches or something, which unlike the race riots has absolutely zero justification and is just appallingly stupid. I witnessed a riot in Vancouver after they lost the Stanley Cup, setting cars on fire and everything, and I hated them. I hated all of them. if you absolutely have to riot, at least do it for a proper cause.)

/unpopular opinion, open to changing.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:28 am

No, you are right.

People who have overthrown governments have not done it by rioting the local store. As I said the way you overthrow a government is by stop working, but there are people who won't or can't afford to sacrifice and join the cause that way. So they leave it to the few loud people who are willing to take the streets.

It's the same tactic black people used in the 60's by not riding the bus. It has been done and can be done, but you need massive support for it to happen.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:38 am

The fact that oppressors might use riots as an excuse to continue oppression is the problem. That very dynamic is the problem...and playing into it is the opposite of solving it.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:44 am

I agree that the dynamic is the problem, but I'm not sure how rioting challenges that dynamic, because it still results in it playing out, and in this instance to the further detriment of the oppressed.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:50 am

Although it might be that the resultant greater oppression would become intolerable to more people who were previously oppressors, causing them to switch over and join the fight, which could work. But it still sucks then that things have to get worse before they get better, especially if it means potentially more deaths of those who'll never live to see that better world.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:04 am

Anakin McFly wrote:I agree that the dynamic is the problem, but I'm not sure how rioting challenges that dynamic, because it still results in it playing out, and in this instance to the further detriment of the oppressed.

Rioting is only one aspect of challenging the status quo. It is a desperate expression of frustration.

Whether you mean to or not, your framing plays into and defends the dynamic.

"If you anger white people, you'll make it worse for yourself" is not how you undermine white supremacy. It's defending it. Putting responsibility on the oppressed while erasing oppressor's agency.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:22 am

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ce/391640/

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:41 am

A question though: Do you think you would be aware of Freddie Gray or the protesters if the riots didn't happen?

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:47 am

This is a good article, I think.

http://www.liberationnews.org/baltimore ... -deferred/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:56 am

from the article:

When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con.

I agree. It's hypocritical for the people responsible for the injustice to be the ones preaching nonviolence.

"If you anger white people, you'll make it worse for yourself" is not how you undermine white supremacy. It's defending it.

It's not so much about not wanting to anger them as about being unfavourable of anything that might hurt ally numbers and turn away potential allies (even if the allies aren't perfect), because I come from the perspective that majority agreement is needed to overthrow oppression, especially when it's a powerless group fighting those with power.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:57 am

@DA - Good point.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:05 am

Thanks for the article. It sucks that violence is usually the only way to get people's attention. I wish it weren't the case.

EDIT: I still cannot be comfortable with innocent people getting seriously hurt / raped / killed, though, often just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not this one, but other similar riots before it.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:54 am

Anakin McFly wrote:from the article:
When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con.
I agree. It's hypocritical for the people responsible for the injustice to be the ones preaching nonviolence.

"If you anger white people, you'll make it worse for yourself" is not how you undermine white supremacy. It's defending it.
It's not so much about not wanting to anger them as about being unfavourable of anything that might hurt ally numbers and turn away potential allies (even if the allies aren't perfect), because I come from the perspective that majority agreement is needed to overthrow oppression, especially when it's a powerless group fighting those with power.

I think you need higher standards for allyship.

Having a whole bunch of fake/sensitive/self-centered "allies" on your side isn't going to overthrow shit. And can cause more insidious harm. And it's part of the reason we've had false progress.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:55 am

Jesse William's epic twitter rant is also a great read:

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/so_exac ... more_rant/

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:59 am

Derived Absurdity wrote:This is a good article, I think.

http://www.liberationnews.org/baltimore ... -deferred/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a good one.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:54 am

I think you need higher standards for allyship.

Yeah, perhaps. Although sometimes it's a choice between mediocre allies and no allies at all, and it's easier to educate allies to become better allies than it is to convert people into allies to begin with.

Regarding the rant: I don't like any kind of violence, on principle, and it's worse when carried out by oppressors, because that has no moral justification whatsoever. So I agree on condemning the double standard he illustrates.

Is there a way to specifically condemn the harm to innocents (e.g. women and girls getting raped, children getting injured, bystanders or those protecting their property getting attacked) that sometimes happen in riots, without condemning the riots themselves? (There's the argument that they might not be entirely innocent, for instance if they're white and thus benefiting from oppression, but if we go down that road then nobody is ever completely innocent.)

But thanks, you two. You've changed some of my views on the subject and given me stuff to think about.

Unvoiced_Apollo · Post by **Unvoiced_Apollo** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:53 pm

Derived Absurdity wrote:A question though: Do you think you would be aware of Freddie Gray or the protesters if the riots didn't happen?

For me, yes, but I live in the DMV (DC, MD, VA) area.

Post by **aels** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:49 pm

Jesse Williams is an eternal delight.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:35 pm

aels wrote:Jesse Williams is an eternal delight.

I lol'd at this yesterday:

http://www.teabreakfast.com/9-revolutio ... ement-mcm/

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:39 pm

People who harm innocents at protests are usually opportunists that take advantage of the situation and have nothing to do with the cause itself.

I think of this basically as vigilantes mob killings. Are they evil? Yes. Is there a better way? Yes. But they are reactionary.

The best way to manifest is always to cause inconvenience. I'd condemn the violence and damage to the private property though. What people should focus on is making the state look evil, that is the best propaganda you can shoot for a cause. Not breaking windows of people's cars. Really, it's like they didn't see mockingjay! Someone needs to go and show these people how to run a manifestation like bosses. I do think the u.s has potential to turn this into a massive movement for good.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:49 pm

Anakin McFly wrote:
I think you need higher standards for allyship.
Yeah, perhaps. Although sometimes it's a choice between mediocre allies and no allies at all, and it's easier to educate allies to become better allies than it is to convert people into allies to begin with.

Regarding the rant: I don't like any kind of violence, on principle, and it's worse when carried out by oppressors, because that has no moral justification whatsoever. So I agree on condemning the double standard he illustrates.

Is there a way to specifically condemn the harm to innocents (e.g. women and girls getting raped, children getting injured, bystanders or those protecting their property getting attacked) that sometimes happen in riots, without condemning the riots themselves? (There's the argument that they might not be entirely innocent, for instance if they're white and thus benefiting from oppression, but if we go down that road then nobody is ever completely innocent.)

But thanks, you two. You've changed some of my views on the subject and given me stuff to think about.

You're doing it wrong if you're exerting energy catering to feelings of allies. You're just enabling their narcissism. And is a slippery slope. Hold them to a higher standard. Organize with real allies.

I'm not sure where all the talk of rape and harm of innocent women and children is coming from.

I condemn over-the-top collateral damage in general. But I reject naive, myopic, one-sided criticism.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:06 pm

Dr_Liszt wrote:People who harm innocents at protests are usually opportunists that take advantage of the situation and have nothing to do with the cause itself.

I think of this basically as vigilantes mob killings. Are they evil? Yes. Is there a better way? Yes. But they are reactionary.

The best way to manifest is always to cause inconvenience. I'd condemn the violence and damage to the private property though. What people should focus on is making the state look evil, that is the best propaganda you can shoot for a cause. Not breaking windows of people's cars. Really, it's like they didn't see mockingjay! Someone needs to go and show these people how to run a manifestation like bosses. I do think the u.s has potential to turn this into a massive movement for good.

There has been speculation that some the escalation and fire-starting was done by outside agitators trying to justify militarization. This is an actual thing because during some of the Ferguson protests a couple undercover cops were outed for joining a protest and trying to start a "we want dead cops" chant.

I will not dismiss all looters as simply opportunists because these are desperate people. There are pictures of people stealing basic necessities like diapers and toilet paper. Desperate black people have everything to do with the cause. On the other hand there are many pictures of white people also looting during these riots...some carrying cases of beer. Those are the opportunists. And those are the pictures they don't show.

As to attacking "innocent bystanders", in this particular case, the violence started with racist whites, who happened to be in the city for the Orioles game/bar-hopping, yelling racial slurs at protestors and physically escalating (trying to hit them with cars, etc).

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:20 pm

Yeah well that is why I said usually.

In my experience it is always people from the outside that causes this kind of violence. Whether they are instigators or people taking advantage of the situation.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:50 pm

To assumme that what black America needs is better PR in order to obtain equality assumes that likeability is a precursor to basic human rights.

http://www.ravishly.com/2015/04/28/riot ... productive

Gypsy-Vanner · Post by **Gypsy-Vanner** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:51 pm

There is no school supported bus transportation for kids so they have to ride public transportation. Apparently police in riot gear descended upon the high school when it was let out and were preventing kids from getting on public buses and even pulling over buses already filled with kids and pulling them all off it. This was before the riots started.

So the angry riotous thugs were actually kids trying to get home from school and being stopped by intimidating police officers in riot gear for no better reason than they were black and riding public transportation. It pissed them off and rightly so, hence the angry retaliation. This is firsthand account from a teacher at the high school where most of the rioters came from.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:33 pm

Cassius Clay wrote:
To assumme that what black America needs is better PR in order to obtain equality assumes that likeability is a precursor to basic human rights.
http://www.ravishly.com/2015/04/28/riot ... productive

What black America needs is complete destruction of the system. I know a lot people, including black people, are comfortable enough with it to look the other way and deviate the focus to somewhere else. But the system itself IS racist and it IS oppressive. What does equality mean in a system that works, needs and feeds on oppression to exist?

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:49 pm

^ Truthy

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:51 pm

Look at Wolf Blitzer being a little bitch:

[youtube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=m7eMNc0aY0o[/youtube]

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:20 pm

Lol

https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-pea ... 4bdadb44cf

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:42 am

Thanks for the articles!

Yeah, I heard from a friend that some of the fires were apparently started with tear gas canisters, so it could have been outsiders. Regarding the innocent bystanders, rapes etc - not this riot, just riots in general, where those things have occasionally happened.

How targeted was the looting and destruction, though? If they were harming others in their neighborhood already in poverty, it would make less sense and seem less justified than attacking, say, police stations and other symbols of government.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:33 am

Dr_Liszt wrote:
Cassius Clay wrote:
To assumme that what black America needs is better PR in order to obtain equality assumes that likeability is a precursor to basic human rights.
http://www.ravishly.com/2015/04/28/riot ... productive
What black America needs is complete destruction of the system. I know a lot people, including black people, are comfortable enough with it to look the other way and deviate the focus to somewhere else. But the system itself IS racist and it IS oppressive. What does equality mean in a system that works, needs and feeds on oppression to exist?

What do you mean by "the system"?

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:42 am

Capitalism. Run and protected by the white elite. Since forever.

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:53 am

I guess you changed your mind from when you said "capitalism isn't the problem, the exploitation is" or something like that.

Dr_Liszt · Post by **Dr_Liszt** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:56 am

Well you are right, both can't exist without each other.

Well I'm pretty sure exploitation can exist without capitalism, but capitalism as it grows it does devour everything in it's path. But I do think the problem with the system is that no matter what it is, it will always be tainted by imperialism and shit will go wrong no matter what.

Anakin McFly · Post by **Anakin McFly** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:15 am

k, leaving the boards for a while because I'm currently going through depression again, and hearing about all the stuff wrong and unfair with the world is one of the things that caused it; then the stress sets off my breathing issues (I survived tuberculosis, but it messed up my lungs) and I have trouble breathing, which happened last night and got pretty bad. >_> So yeah, need to stop and get away from all this for a while before it kills me or something.

Thanks for the great discussion. I learnt a lot from this one. <3

Cinemachinery · Post by **Cinemachinery** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Is there a way to specifically condemn the harm to innocents (e.g. women and girls getting raped, children getting injured, bystanders or those protecting their property getting attacked) that sometimes happen in riots, without condemning the riots themselves? (There's the argument that they might not be entirely innocent, for instance if they're white and thus benefiting from oppression, but if we go down that road then nobody is ever completely innocent.)

I think you did so admirably - the aspect of the rioting you're objecting to isn't so much the rioting as it is the depraved taking advantage of others expressing rage to further their own criminal desires. It's not just that it drives away "potential allies" or whatever the phrase was, it creates a division within what should be a united community, as it always seems to target others in the same community.

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:47 pm

Cassius Clay wrote:Lol

https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-pea ... 4bdadb44cf

Unsurprisingly, no mention of 1989.
Guess people will believe what they want to believe.

Cassius Clay · Post by **Cassius Clay** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:34 pm

phe_de wrote:
Cassius Clay wrote:Lol

https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-pea ... 4bdadb44cf
Unsurprisingly, no mention of 1989.
Guess people will believe what they want to believe.

Whaaa?

Derived Absurdity · Post by **Derived Absurdity** » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:53 pm

Idk man. The only thing I can think of is the Tiananmen Square protests. The one where hundreds or maybe even thousands were brutally killed by the Chinese army.

(as opposed to gently killed)

phe_de · Post by **phe_de** » Fri May 01, 2015 12:11 am

I was thinking about the fall of the Iron Curtain in Europe.

It started with peaceful protests from the people. The countries where the transition from Stalinist dictatorships to democracies went more or less smoothly were the ones where the protests stayed peaceful.
The ones where there was violence (like in Romania) went less smoothly. Same with Russia.

China is a different story, even if it's related.