do you want to have a thread about abortion

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Anakin McFly
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do you want to have a thread about abortion

Post by Anakin McFly »

I used to think that even the most ardent pro-lifers would agree that late term abortion is permissible in the case where carrying the baby to term would result in the death of both mother and baby, but I've since learnt otherwise. The argument seems to be two-fold:
1) One should trust that God knows better than doctors. Tim Tebow's name gets thrown out a lot, although it seems his case was a matter of "this kid will very probably die, you can abort now or try your luck" and they decided on the latter because they had little to lose, and he survived, good for them.

2) A deontological approach to morality: i.e. it is always wrong to take a life, even if doing so will save more lives.
I'm frustrated with the people who insist that "doctors are often wrong! GOD CAN DO MIRACLES" even if the foetus has no brains (most commonly) or no lungs (instant suffocation upon birth) or no spinal cord or only half a head and in one case had exposed brains forming on his exposed spinal cord outside of his skull, and the probability of life is 0% with no room at all for error. Many are already dying. Often, the foetus is biologically incapable of achieving sentience or experiencing pain, which in many of those cases is a very good thing. Carrying the baby to term - if it even survives that long - may also very likely (in some cases definitely) kill the mother due to infections and other problems.

I do consider it killing if the foetus is sentient. But I lean more utilitarian when it comes to morality, which makes it hard for me to empathise with the view that one should never take even a doomed life when doing so could prevent another person's death. It's basically a choice between dead baby, or dead baby and dead mother, and I can't accept that people would choose the latter. If I were going to die anyway and could choose whether my mom has to die as well, obviously I would want her to live.

I understand they believe one's duty is only to act ethically, even when doing so may allow greater evil to unfold. I guess it's similar to those voting third-party even if they believe Trump is worse and might win. But I'm still angry that people argue that if a mother truly loves her dying unborn child, she will willingly die alongside that child rather than choose to hasten its death that she may live, even if it means the rest of her children having to be motherless and everyone who loves her being devastated by her death. I grant that it may be honorable and sacrificial and selfless and let her die with a clean conscience, and can imagine a scenario where perhaps someone's kid is trapped and drowning underwater and she can either abandon the kid and survive or stay there with her kid to the end, even if it means drowning herself. I can totally understand someone choosing to do that out of love. But in the case of a foetus with no awareness of what its mother is doing, it's so maddeningly pointless, and would cause the suffering of so many other people beyond herself, which is arguably more selfish.

idk what are your thoughts?

(I used to be against late term abortion until reading up on it this week. They make up 1.3% of all abortions; in 70% of cases, the foetus has severe birth defects that mean it would never live, or have a very short and painful life if so. In most of the remaining 30% the mother's health/life is in serious danger. The irony is that banning late term abortions will mean targetting the most necessary ones that most pro-lifers would agree on.)

(This topic bothers me a lot because on the very slim but non-zero chance I ever end up pregnant, I'd need to go off medication that is the only thing allowing me to breathe normally right now (tuberculosis damaged my lung); which would mean 9 months in a state of near-suffocation and possibly dying, while the lack of oxygen will almost definitely cause major birth defects in any developing foetus who might also die. Because of that I'd likely choose to abort, but the what-ifs might haunt me forever, especially since the thought does make me feel guilty and selfish.)
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Gendo
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Re: do you want to have a thread about abortion

Post by Gendo »

I read a blog post from a guy that made a good point... which was that even in this cases, supporting "abortion" would be wrong. But that wasn't to say that you shouldn't do everything you can to save the life of the mother, which may include having to remove the child from the womb... and then at that point you do all you can to save the life of the baby, which may or may not be hopeless depending on the age.

His point being that there's a difference between saying "we tragically are forced to remove the baby to save the mother, even though we know that it may result in the baby's death", and saying "abortion is ok in this situation".
Anakin McFly
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Re: do you want to have a thread about abortion

Post by Anakin McFly »

I definitely agree with that approach, though such cases are usually still considered under the umbrella of late-term abortions. A friend shared this article where a delivery was induced early (which was labelled a late-term abortion since it would kill the baby). The doctor who wrote it says:
If mom can be kept stable, a few hours, or a couple days, everything that can be done to get the fetus to survive on its own will be done. Not an abortion, a delivery. If the fetus can be saved, it will be. There is never a point where this isn't considered. Can we get you to viable without putting your life in danger? This is the question we ask and try to answer.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/tobin-mo ... nref=story

Likewise a short post here, written by a Mormon woman. She had twin babies in the womb - one had died (thus threatening her health from infection) and the other was severely deformed and non-viable:
https://www.facebook.com/alyson.draper/ ... 9201680871

Most late term abortions are down to severe foetal abnormalities (with zero chance of life) rather than health of the mother, and they choose to abort while it can not yet feel pain or consciousness - or only minimally - rather than wait until its brain has developed further and will experience much more suffering, only to still die at the end. Others have also spoken of the trauma of people smiling at them and congratulating them on a baby that they know will never live, and not wanting to draw out the grieving process. But I lean in favour of euthanasia when it comes to terminal illness with extreme suffering, so that also affects my views here.

I believe in not aborting unless from medical necessity (and other exceptions - the idea that giving birth to a rapist's baby gives parental rights to that rapist is extremely disturbing, and may pressure women into aborting when they otherwise might not. I can't imagine forcing a rape victim to interact regularly with her rapist, let alone occasionally allow him to look after her child). My bigger problem is with the way some in the pro-life camp so easily demonise the other side, making them out to be heartless monsters without any shred of empathy who for some reason salivate at the idea of murdering perfectly healthy babies. They imply that they do it just for fun, or whimsically changing their minds even after going through the physical ordeal of several months pregnancy. Late term abortion costs about US$25k and involve health risks including the possibility of the mother's death, so it's not something people do unless the alternatives are worse.

(In some cases the baby will survive, but be disabled. Ideally such babies would be carried to term, but as someone who's worked with special needs kids, I've seen the extreme stress their parents are often under, and that's for relatively well-off families who can afford help. If it's a single mother, or a teenager, or one with her own health issues, or living in poverty, it would be near impossible for her to adequately care for a special needs child, and she is extremely unlikely to find a willing adoptive family; their decision to abort is tragic but understandable. Hopefully society finds ways to make it easier to support special needs kids.)
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